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| Pearl Harbor, John Lennon, And Joseph Smith - Unintended Consequences
| | Posted Dec 9, 2005, at 09:21 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: fh451 ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| Yes, fh451 has gone around the bend and thinks that these three things actually have something in common. Please indulge me for a moment. Yesterday was the anniversary of the bombing of Pearl Harbor, and this morning on NPR they talked about the death of John Lennon. I believe each of these demonstrates a case of unintended consequences. Pearl Harbor galvanized a reluctant nation into entering World War II and ultimately defeating the Third Reich and their war machine and horrific ethnic cleansing programs. It also contained Japanese Imperialism. While the Japanese believed that one decisive attack would cut the United States off at the knees and that the country would not have the fortitude to prosecute the war after that, they miscalculated. In part the attack was not decisive enough - they missed the aircraft carriers. On the other hand, Yamamoto recognized that they may have given the United States a reason to fight all out: "I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant." That attack set into motion a seriesof events that changed history and led to their own defeat.
Now about John Lennon. He had a post-Beatle career that was rather uneven. He still displayed some flashes of brilliance, but his popularity alone was nothing like the Beatles as a group. Some biographies have pointed out that on a personal level he had many faults and could be rather obnoxious to work with. But Mark Chapman cemented Lennon's place as an music icon and folk hero, where he may have just faded away. Just like James Dean and Elvis, the macabre joke goes that dying may have been his best career move. While I have no idea what Mark Chapman's motives were (he was and may still be mentally ill), the results were to immortalize Lennon in a way that Lennon could likely never have done himself. People glorify the fallen hero.
I think most of you could see where I'm going with this. Joseph Smith was likely on an over indulgent course of self-destruction before the Nauvoo Expositor came along. I wouldn't be surprised if Joseph had not been murdered, that before long there would have been an economic crash and malfeasance charges very much like what happened in Kirtland. Too many people were in on the polygamy secret, and secrets have a way of getting out. Joseph controlled (or tried to control) the economics of Nauvoo, and he had shown himself to be a rather poor businessman. Friction was mounting with non-Mormons as well. But the Expositor forced his hand and he was taken to Carthage. The mob thought they would silence him for good, and they did. But by doing so they elevated him to the martyr position, and provided the driving force that makes Mormonism what it is today. If he hadn't been killed, I think there is a good chance the church would have broken up in localized feuding factions, and eventually would have faded to becomean insignificant sect like the Strangites and Community of Christ. But Brigham Young seized the opportunity to take power, move the LDS members away to isolate and build up a miniature kingdom. So in a way, the mob facilitated the very thing they were hoping to stop.
The irony, the irony.
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| Creating Jesus In Mormonism's Own Image - Jesus Is Buried Beneath The Behemoth Of The Institution
| | Posted Nov 4, 2005, at 08:40 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| Having been on both sides of the LDS fence I don't see that the Mormon Jesus has the same role as he does in Protestant churches. Sure, everyone knows that the Mormon Jesus is different than the Protestant Jesus. But since the role he plays in salvation is night and day different that influences the Jesus content of Mormon SM's and in individual Mormon's lives.
Jesus for me was always a comfort and never a taskmaster. Like you suggested, as a TBM Jesus and TSCC existed in two different realities. That wasn't the case when I was a Protestant. Jesus was never used by the pastor as a lever to affect members' lives in a manner inconsistent with the NT depiction of him. In fact, pastors frequently were ineffective because they relied too heavily on the long suffering role model of Jesus. More importantly, Protestant Jesus was never used to manipulate church members into doing something merely because the pastor wanted it done. As such belief in Jesus had more personal impact since there wasn't a lot of conflicting dogma.
[I'm sure there are Protestants whose experience was different than mine, but I can only relate what I experienced. I had two pastors as an active UMC member, two mediocre and one exceptionally good. At worst the two mediocre pastors were the equivalent of my best bishops in how they interacted with members and influenced them as leaders. The best pastor (not necessarily the best sermonizer) put every bishop and SP I've ever known to shame. We're talking 'man of God' goodness here. The GAs are nothing compared to him. And he's just an everyday guy.]
As a Protestant believer Jesus was a real inspiration to me in how I acted, thought, and perceived the world around me. It was very much as McDonkie has decried as a personal relationship. Now, even I will grant you that you can't have a personal relationship with a past historical being. But you can model your life after a historical being to the point at which you feel a oneness of purpose.
In contrast, Mormon Jesus to me as a TBM was a distant, seemingly irrelevant Savior. Afterall, he had done only a bit more than Joseph Smith to provide for my salvation. The distance was made worse by Mormon lay leadership who largely did not know how to lead others as disciples of Jesus. The net result is the politics of the institutional church killed Jesus as an effective role model for members.
I think about this subject frequently as a non-believer while DW is in the other room reading the BoM and other scriptures. Her Jesus is buried beneath the behemoth of the institution. Truly her only opportunity to learn about the Jesus I once believed in is personal time reading the scriptures. (She certainly won't learn about that Jesus in SM, Sunday School, or RS.) And if she would read the NIV NT she would get a glimpse of that Jesus I knew. But the Jesus of the BoM, D&C;, HoC, etc... is a connived Jesus that exists solely to justify the existence of the LDS institution.
Palmer's and other's suggestions then are really circumspect. Yes, perhaps there would be a bit more compassion in TSCC. Yes, maybe there would be less ecclesiastical abuse. But in the end the net effect would be minimal because the institution is jealous of, and honestly at odds with Jesus. Afterall, TSCC doesn't want members to be devoted to Jesus. They want members to be devoted to the institution and to believe that the institution, not Jesus, is essential to their salvation.
I haven't given up all hope on religion or Christianity. The pain and disillusionment of the Mormon fraud is fading. If there's anything that gives me pause to think that maybe I'll believe again someday it's the Protestant Jesus I grew up believing in.
http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.c...
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| Does The Church Just Get Worse And Worse As Time Goes On?
| | Posted Nov 1, 2005, at 07:17 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| MoNoMo said this in a thread a few days ago that I'm just getting to because I haven't been on the Foyer for almost a week:
It took me over 20 years to figure out what my father figured out by the time he was 18, only I don't think that the church is mostly benign. I think it is mostly malignant. It's a cancer that needs radical, life threatening surgery to remove.
MoNoMo's statement reminded me for some reason of a portion of the Exmo Conference I listened to in which Richard Packham briefly described the church of his youth in the 1950s. Though the trappings of racism were openly displayed and the temple had its death oaths in all their glory, he seemed to be discussing a Mormon world that no longer existed. No pressure to serve a mission? Temple attendance not emphasized? And so on.
Packham went on to say that, for a long time, though he had left the church, he considered it fairly benign. It wasn't until he got involved in the exmo community in the 1990s that he began realizing what a terrible institution it was, how many lives it is destroying. It reminds me of statements made by those of you who grew up in the church in, say, the '70s, and remember a Mormonism which, for all its problems, had more social solidarity, local autonomy, and community spirit than today's correlated, soulless drudgery. Sure, some of that is probably nostalgia, but I'm definitely sensing a trend.
Could there actually have been a time when the church really was relatively benign? It seems like once polygamy had finally gsaped its last breath in the 1910s, down to the time when correlation began in the 1960s or so, Mormonism might actually have been a semi-decent place. This doesn't make the church any less of a fraud, of course. But it's very telling that the experience of more recent generations appears so different.
Is there a generational component in the apostate's experience of Mormonism? I can hardly imagine the world Packham described. The church I knew when I got involved in the 1990s (I'm 28) was nonstop conformism from top to bottom. Everything has a program and everyone has their place. Today there's no wiggle room. You do your duty and suffocate in the process. You serve a mission, you keep the WoW, you pay 10% on your gross, you read your scriptures, you do everything or you are made to shoulder a crippling burden of guilt. It's as though the church has been steadily squeezing out the "cultural Mormons," putting on more pressure to the point where people are drying up.
Am I mistaken in this view? Could even the Internet be propelling so many people out of the Morg if the experience of Mormonism in today's church weren't so bleak? Fewer and fewer people are concluding that the church is worth sticking around for because it's a good place to be (that's usually the argument of the TBM protesting the POV of the apostate). Nowadays it's painfully obvious to the apostate that the church is indeed a cancer on the body of humanity.
The church is squeezing the center to the bursting point. Wrapped in the self-righteousness of its own truth claims, it's creating the very conditions that are leading people to doubt those claims. And it's doing so much more rapidly than it ever could have done 50, 30, or even 10 years ago.
http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.c...
Editor Note: Excellent post, my sentiments exactly.
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| Then And Now: Model LDS Faithful In The Headlines - Steve Pokere In Ensign 1999 - Now In Jail
| | Posted Oct 21, 2005, at 10:33 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| Another one bites the dust. Or, the down-side of making saints of the living.
From the March 1999 Ensign: Making Friends: Steve and Marilyn Pokere
"Brother Pokere is the branch president."
"Brother Pokere's personal experiences are an inspiration to his children."
"He has passed on many of the lessons he learned in rugby to his children. One of these is the importance of preparing themselves to achieve their dreams. "A lot goes into preparation that fans aren't aware of. You're out there slogging your heart out in practice. Your lungs are popping while everyone else is inside next to the fire. It's the price of success. And once you reach the top, it doesn't give you the right to remain there. It's a continuous thing that you have to keep working on.""
From today's headlines: Former All Black Steve Pokere is in jail for his part in a $4 million fraud that preyed on fellow Mormons.
"The representative midfield back - remembered as much for his religious beliefs as his silky skills - was sentenced in Auckland District Court on September 30 to 2½ years' jail."
"Pokere, 47, and the women - all Mormons - were directors of the failed investment company FF Traders, which was struck off and placed in liquidation in 2003, about three years after it was formed."
"At the time it had taken about $4 million, mainly from family and friends - fellow Mormons - of which just $900,000 was actually invested. Of this, just $500,000 was returned to investors. They had been promised returns as high as 100 per cent over four months"
Yep, it's hard work.
http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.c...
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| Hurricane Rita Cleanup Report
| | Posted Oct 18, 2005, at 08:32 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| Yesterday, October 15th, I went with others from my ward and stake to cut down trees and do cleanup in southeast Texas in the wake of Hurricane Rita.
I showed up at 5:00 am at our stake center, and my bishop saw that I was wearing a white T-shirt and asked if I needed a yellow "Mormon Helping Hands" shirt. I said, "No, I'm OK." To my surprise, he shrugged it off and said no more about it. After everyone showed up, we left for Orange, TX. At the Orange stake center, I ran into my stake president, who again asked me if I needed a yellow T-shirt. I again said, "No, I'm OK." but didn't bother to stick around for his reaction because I was hurrying into the building to take a leak. A few guys from my ward asked me if I needed a yellow T-shirt. I gave each of them my standard, "No, I'm OK." answer, except one guy who kept pressing the issue. I finally said "I don't look good in yellow." One guy from my ward, XXX, said "Oh, don't bother {myfirstname}, he's an independant thinker." (More on XXX later.) What is the deal with wearing those damn T-shirts? I can't tell if the church is more interested in the PR, the "missionary opportunities", or the actual work beingdone. In Orange there were a couple of guys with a professional video camera going around interviewing people. They didn't look like reporters, because the interviewer was always off-camera and dressed in work clothes, too. I wonder if it was a church PR effort?
Orange and the surrounding area still has a lot of tree damage. All power was back on from what I could tell. There were many businesses open, but still a sizable fraction temporarily closed. About two-thirds of the roofs had at least a small section of blue tarps covering them, and several that were completely covered. The area around Orange is fairly wooded, and probably one third of the trees were snapped in half. Even though it had been three weeks, the storm damage was still pretty evident.
My work group was assigned to Vidor, "Home of the KKK", Texas. We went to a non-member's house. She was an elderly lady who had four or five large trees down in her back yard. My work crew had 8 men and 4 chain saws. It was hot, humid, and heavy work. Differences in religious devotion not withstanding, there wasn't a slacker in my group. We all worked our butts off. At lunch, I joked that if we were Jedi Knights with lightsabers, we'd have finished the job in less than an hour. Brother XXX chuckled, and I got a lot of blank stares, and dour EQP said, "I prefer to live in the real world, not a fantasy world." I had several responses to that, but I kept my mouth shut.
Later in the afternoon, we had one tree left to clear. It was leaning at about a 45 degree angle, up against another tree. After cutting a couple of limbs that were apparently holding it up, it only went down a couple of feet. The roots were still keeping it up. I was tired and punchy, so I ran up the trunk and started to jump on it. XXX also came up and jumped up and down on it with me. It slowly started to fall, and we rode it down. We were only about 8 feet off the ground, and it fell pretty slowly, so it was kind of fun, and we were not ever really in danger. XXX was the only guy there who called me by my first name. Everyone else called me Brother Lastname. I, on the other hand, called everyone by their first names. I really don't understand the whole Brother/Sister thing. If it was meant to show closeness or fellowship, it sure doesn't do it for me. People I am close with call me by my first name, even people I work with. Being addressed by my last name is only done by strangers and ward members. Go figure.
We finished a little early, at 4:00, because all of our chain saws gave out. We still had to cut up that last tree that we downed, but if the saws don't work, there's nothing more we could have done. At least we listened to the Astros game on the radio on the way home, instead of telling each other "inspirational" stories.
I was recently assigned to home teach XXX. I had not really known him or his family before. I am glad to see that he seems like a real person, and not some thoughtless drone. I was pleasantly surprised at how affable and friendly he was, esecially compared to my other work-crew members.
We helped a poor, elderly, non-member lady clear trees from her back yard. I am satisfied that what we did made a real difference, at least to one person. I'm also glad that I didn't have to wear advertising for the church.
http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.c...
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| Top Ten Reasons For Protecting Your Children From Mormonism
| | Posted Oct 17, 2005, at 08:11 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| The excellent 'propaganda push' thread includes a discussion on costs and benefits of membership. From time to time a thread here includes the statement "and that is why the church is dangerous" or words to that effect. I would love to gather these together in one place. Any suggestions?
My reason for asking is that DW expressed a willingness to discuss why I don't believe. This is a small window of opportunity, and I want to choose my words carefully. DW does not care about doctrinal or historical issues, but she does care about our children. Hence the working title, "top ten reasons for protecting your children from Mormonism."
Here is my initial list. I am sure others can do better.
10. Getting less than the best. We agree that we can find many WORSE lifestyles. But we can also do much BETTER for our children. Whatever the Church offers, we can duplicate it elsewhere without such high costs.
9. Friends. (This mainly applies outside Utah.) By making our children Mormons, we make it harder for them to make friends. (Note: it is EASIER to make quick friends in the church, but quick and easy is seldom best.) This applies even worse when it comes to marriage.
8. Childhood. When we make them sit for hours in church and worry about sin, we steal their childhood. And when we stop them experimenting with normal urges and normal friends, we steal their adolescence.
7. Time away from family or schoolwork. Early morning seminary, separate meetings, and endless church activities take our children away from schoolwork or away from the home.
6. Criticism. Some of the things we condemn them for, like moderate arguing, breaking the sabbath or speaking like their peer group, may actually be healthy as a step in growing up. A related issue is self-criticism. For many people, righteousness is a constant internal struggle. Yet most of the things they battle about (like avoiding sexual thoughts or friends who swear) make them unhappy with no obvious benefit.
5. Morality. The church is always morally behind: racism, sexism, homophobia, etc.
4. Danger of emotional catastrophe. What happens in many years time when they study church history and find out that it is all a fraud? That can destroy their life.
3. and 2. - something about particular dangers. Not sure what to put here.
1. The church is not true. (DNA, Book of Abraham, Fanny Alger, etc., it is easy to prove.) I have tried to avoid historical and doctrinal argument, but we can't ignore it completely. However good the church may look, it s based on lies. Can this be healthy for our children?
These are only initial suggestions. I'm looking for more ideas. Can anyone help?
http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.c...
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| Newsweek Article To Share With Believers?
| | Posted Oct 11, 2005, at 07:39 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| Since believers always gobble up things like this when they appear in the news, a poster on another board had found a newsweek article that I found interesting as possibly something to send to those believers...
It is, for the most part, history as the LDS church interprets it. However, there are some golden gems that may begin to plant the seed.
The article is located here: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9630255/site/newsweek/ (Oct 17, 2005 issue of Newsweek)
My excerpts of interest that are not as the LDS church openly admits to, with comments, are as follows:
"No single mormon doctrine or practice has been more controversial than polygamy. Smith said he was commanded by God to take plural wives like Abraham and other Old Testament figures. Most historians agree that he married his first plural wife, a 16-year-old who worked in his house, about 1833--and some 30 more in the next decade. Not everyone believed God sanctioned the marriages."
Even this article in a largely pro light states clearly that Smith took young women as wives.
"The characteristic features of the LDS Church--sacred temple rites, personal revelation, tithing and a history of polygamy--come directly from Smith."
Again, polygamy from Joseph Smith.
"Because of Mormonism's unique theology, some of which challenges early Christian creeds, many Christian denominations don't consider the LDS Church to be Christian."
Odd, isn't it, that a restorationist church differs from early Christianity?
"Smith knew that his testimony required a leap of faith. 'I don't blame anyone for not believing my history,' he said shortly before his death. 'If I had not experienced what I have, I could not have believed it myself."
I just can't help but think of Fast and Testimony Meeting in concert with this quote. I know this... I know that... I know the other... Not even Joseph Smith would have believed himself (or at least, that's what he said), if he didn't experience it. Why is it not "I have faith that..."? Why is "knowing" so essential for them to repeat over and over? This is not what the Book of Mormon says, ironically, either...it states that faith is not to have knowledge, but it is more like a hope (ie, faith is not the same as knowing). Mormon testimonies, when you think about it, are about the least faithful testimonies I have ever heard...they "know" it all, there is no wiggle room or room for faith to be openly admitted to--gotta look good to the masses!
"After Smith ordered an antagonistic printing press destroyed, he was jailed."
This comes in context of when he was killed. So this article even brings out the truth that it was because he destroyed a printing press with differing ideals. Contrast that with the First Amendment!
"The record reveals a complicated man. The church's early converts, many of whom learned about it from missionaries, were sometimes shocked when they met Smith in person. He was uneducated, he lost his temper, he enjoyed power--and perhaps most startling for converts was the fact that, on occasion, his ventures failed. Simply put, he didn't always seem like a prophet. "It was very hard, even in his own times, to remain neutral on him," says Mark Scherer, church historian for Community of Christ, a branch that followed Smith's son Joseph III instead of Brigham Young after Smith's death. "Either you thought the guy walked on water or you thought the guy was a huge fraud." Smith was involved in dozens of lawsuits. By the end of his life, he had accrued some 30 wives, massive debt and hundreds of enemies."
And the missing line is that those who "know" LDS is true will rationalize away Smith's failed ventures, ignore his temper, and disregard his power trips rather than admitting Smith was wrong on anything.
Sam
http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.c...
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| I Was So TBM, Friends Hid Their True Selves From Me
| | Posted Oct 3, 2005, at 07:33 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| When I was TBM, I was TBM. Miss Molly Mormon, miss don't-do-anything-wrong-or-anything-even-close-unto-it. I looked down on watching Schindler's List because it was rated-R; I looked down on my friends who watched Schindler's List. I was appalled if
I heard about anyone getting drunk in college. I was appalled at anyone getting a nose ring or tongue ring and hiding it in the testing center at YBU. I was highly concerned if DH didn't want to listen to every session of conference. I was disgusted at a guy friend who admitted to me that he'd kissed a couple dozen girls in high school.
In a nutshell, I didn't understand anyone.
And people must have realized that about me, because people cued in pretty quick to my prudishness and simply did not reveal their true selves to me, consciously or unconsciously, I don't know. I never got to know SO MANY people because I was so blind to what people are really like, so focused I was on what they should be.
A close mo friend of mine used to get drunk in high school. I didn't find out until I was ex. Another who is nevermo but has close ties to mormons has read into the church and thinks it's wacko and offensive and exclusive, and here I was wondering if I should ask her to come to church. Now it's like everyone can breathe a little easier around me, unwind a little, be themselves.
Even my relationship with DH was colored by this. Looking back, I see that he was on his way out of the church looooong before me. He was already sick of conference when I was hanging on every word of every session, etc. And I was blind. To my own husband. I didn't want to see it, so I reprimanded.
I find it all profoundly sad. I've missed out on so much of life, of relationships, of human nature. I was so stuck on how things should be, that I never stopped to look at how things are.
I've got a lot of catching up to do.
http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.c...
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| Are Tank Tops Immodest?
| | Posted Sep 28, 2005, at 08:57 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| Bad me. I got surfing around on a mormon msg board and the question was posed: Are tank tops immodest? I am reminded as I read the responses that these opinions are pretty typical among the mormon crowd. Which is why NOW when I read this I just want to shake some sense into these parents.
Here are some excerpts of some of the responses:
Yes, I do think that tank tops/sleeveless tops are immodest.
My girls wear tanks or sleeveless dresses sometimes when they are little. However, my oldest is developing on top, and now she doesn't. Actually, she hasn't since she was about six years old. In fact, I more often than not put a cute little t-shirt under a sleeveless dress--seeing it more as a jumper. OR I have them wear a little white eyelet shirt over the dress (unbuttoned) like a little jacket--very cute!
I think that modesty is more than "Does this cover my garments?". It's not about following the letter of the law. It's an attitude about our bodies and what we want to show to others. It's also about not drawing attention to ourselves. There's nothing wrong with looking nice, of course, but a modest person really isn't someone who uses her outward appearance to be the center of attention.
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....Just a side note- In a bishopric address it was stated that we need to teach our YOUNG children modesty too. That 2 year olds in strapy tops is not ok. Everyone has an opinion on this one and I know it's hard to even find children's clothes in the summer that isn't a tank top. But I thought I would pass that along too since its related.
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You know, I don't think the shirts that cover the shoulder but not the arm are that big of a deal and I miss wearing shirts like that. ITS AN ARM!!!!!! And I am a HOT PERSON, and I like air! LOL
Tank tops can be trashy, who wants to see your BRA strap? Or NO BRA? That is hard for the men too, they naturally look and its not fair to them, when they try so hard to not look.
There are many dresses out there that are cute and everything is covered and YOUTHFUL, and I want some of them, but can't because my top arm near the shoulder isn't covered on them. My shoulder would be covered but my upper arm wouldn't. I feel there needs to be more youthful looks out there for us LDS ladies.
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Honestly, when I was looking in my 1 and 1/2 year old daughters closet I discovered she only has one dress with sleeves and the rest are no sleeve! It's true, you are very hard pressed to find childrens clothes that have sleeves in the summer. I decided that when she turns 2 or 3 I will only buy clothes that I would wear. It's sad, there's SO many cute clothes (especially for little girls) out there and most of them are not appropriate.
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Yes, I think tank tops are immodest.
As a side note, I used to not care if my daughter (who just turned 2) wore tank tops or dresses with no sleeves. In fact, I argued that it didn't matter because SHE didn't know the difference. Then, one Sunday in Primary the Primary President read to the kids from the "For the Strength of Youth" book. It says, "Young women should wear clothing that covers the shoulder and avoid clothing that is low-cut in the from or the back or revealing in any other manner." After hearing that, I talked to my husband about it and we decided our daughter would wear shirts and dresses that covered her shoulders.
(my note: HELLO! Your daughter is two! How could her clothes be 'revealing?' Only to a pervert.)
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And finally: a reasonable voice:
I am not endowed so I wear tank tops. I don't think it's immodest as long as your covered in the chest and stomach areas. My girls wear tank tops all the time. It's hot here in Miami so I try to keep us cool so we can keep our air-conditioning costs down. My parents bought me tank tops even when I was a teenager. They are pretty strict LDS so I thought if they didn't think it's a big deal why should I? It's all a matter of personal choice. I have never dressed immodestly because I don't like feeling as though I am on display but there are some modest tank tops out there that I am comfortable wearing.
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And finally: the post that describes the predominant mindset of my TBM friends:
A lot of my little girl's summer dresses are sleeveless, but we always wore a onesie under it. When she's older - she won't have to question why she can't wear tank tops/spag. straps. b/c she never really has. Does that make sense?
the same with a boy, we will always dress him in a white shirt/dress pants for sunday(well at least not shorts/t-shirt when infant, something dressy). they look so cute!
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It goes on and on and on, but you get the point.
What I find kind of amusing now is that my 5 year old daughter only has maybe one dress that has sleeves. For the SM program she wore a cute little plaid spahetti strap dress. She is such a tiny thing that I often forget that she is wearing what many people at church would label immodest. I'm sorry, but that is their problem. I used to worry about stuff like this all the time when I was TBM and I knew several friends with teenagers who were confronted about their daughters (shock) sleeveless dress. In fact, I just realized that one girl who is now inactive for over 2 years now, was treated with total disdain when she wore a dress with one inch straps on the shoulders to church. I was not close to this girl at all as I was in the Primary at the time, and she must have been about 14, but I wish I had at least complimented her that day. I honestly thought she looked so pretty. I'm guessing a lot of the girls were secretly jealous of her. I know that when I was a self-righteous future-mother-in-zion Young Woman, I was definitely jealous of those girls who got to wear normal clothes, even if their families were TBM.
Maybe this thread is just another one of my rants about a topic that just TICKS me off. I've considered not posting, but maybe somebody will find it as interesting as I did.
http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.c...
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| Short Story - Rock Walls by Once Bitten
| | Posted Sep 27, 2005, at 09:13 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| I had the urge to write today, so I concocted the following short story. I thought I was over my Mormon experience, but when I re-read the story ... I realized that I'm still in the process of recovering. It's pretty long - for a 'short story,' that is.
ROCK WALLS
The fall was unexpected and unstoppable. He had been kneeling on the rock floor of his home repairing a hunting spear when with an ear-splitting noise the world seemed to turn upside down. He was lost and confused. He saw huge pieces of rock, pine trees, sunlight and earth as he toppled through the air. His mind could not register in those brief moments what was happening. He had been in the midst of a normal day, and then he was falling. His mind was a torrent of sights and sounds that he couldn't interpret. They were simply perceptions. Grey, brown, green, yellow, blue - each in a dozen shades. Stone, tree, sky, earth. Rushing air, crashing noises, rocks smashing, trees rending. Everything whirling together and mixed with the euphoric feeling that comes with free falling. All these perceptions were made all the more exhilarating by the confusion of not knowing what was happening. He didn't feel terror, not yet. He had not the time so far. That would come later, after his fall was rudely and abruptly stopped.
He had lived his whole life in this home. As a matter of fact, all the people he knew lived in cliff-wall caves similar to his. One simply did not leave one's family dwelling unless one had to. If someone did leave, it was because the family had grown too large to live together in that amount of space. And then that person would find another cave in which to live. He didn't have this problem, however. He was his family's only surviving child, and although he was now an adult, he had yet to start producing the family's next generation. Furthermore, his parents died recently. This cave, which had been in his family for generations, was his alone. The floor, walls and roof were solid rock. The rock overhead sheltered them from sun and rain. The pine trees that surrounded the opening of the cave kept out much of the wind. It was possible for someone to fall down the cliff if they weren't careful, but that seldom happened. The strength of these dwellings formed part of the identity of his people. It represented strength and security.
As these thoughts and memories flashed across his mind, his fall stopped. His senses reeled at the brutal impact. He lay there stunned. Waves of nausea washed through him. Then, the pain started. It hurt everywhere. He tried to look at his body to see what his injuries were, but it hurt too much to move. From his current position he could tell that he had blood all over his face. He could also see his right arm, or what was left of it anyway. The arm was bent at a horrible angle, and his hand was almost torn off, dangling by a little bit of skin and sinew. He knew these must be the least of his injuries because the pain they caused hardly registered compared to the pain he felt everywhere else. He noticed how dry his mouth was. His thinking was getting cloudy. He wondered how anyone could be in this much pain and not die. Luckily, if death wouldn't come, at least unconsciousness or delusion seemed to be approaching.
He envisioned his father teaching him when he was a child. "Just like rain bounces off the rocks above our head and wind is brushed aside by the pine trees, even so the bad things in life are turned away from you as long as you stay loyal to the tribe." Of course, he wasn't very old when he realized that bad things happened to loyal people and good things happened to disloyal people. However, that realization did not make his father's teachings untrue. Rather, it prompted him to understand those teachings on a different level. "Just as the occasional rain that gets blown through the tree limbs and into our home only causes us minor discomfort, even so the bad things in life can't do you any harm as long as you understand them in their proper context. They are part of the purpose of life, to teach us, test us and make us stronger. That way, when we die and our bones become part of the rock, the rock stays strong; when our spirit leaves this world to become part of the eternal existence, it too will be strong and wise."
After his father died, he asked the tribal leader about the stability of the stone that comprised his home. The thought occurred to him that if the wind and rain made these caves, couldn't they eventually wear them away, too? This brought a torrent of instruction from his leader, who reminded him that just as stone is firm and unmovable, even so he should be firm in his commitment to their way of life. This included not only the type of dwelling they should have, but also their social structure, rites of worship, hunting methods and every other way of thinking and doing that they were taught since childhood. Only the weak-minded allow doubts to enter their minds. Stone is strong. Only foolish people question the stone. Questioning causes people to focus on unimportant things and doesn't allow them to move forward with their work. A man's work, among other things, is to hunt and perform his tribal duties. Within his cave, a man should add glory to himself and his family by painting the rock walls with depictions of their heroic deeds and homage to the gods. Endless questioning detracted from these duties.
But he did doubt. He surveyed the outcropping of rock that comprised his cave. All the dwellings of other families were in the flat part of the cliff. His cave, however, was formed in a part of the cliff that jutted out from the rest. It was because of the unusual structure of this particular rock that they were able to enjoy the benefit of a few pine trees near the entrance of their home. When he looked closely at this rock formation, he thought he saw a possibility that it could simply break off from the rest of the cliff.
As he lay broken in a pile of debris, he wondered if this fall had been a natural result of wind and rain wearing away the cliff until his outcropping of rock broke away. Then he wondered if the fall occurred because he doubted the rock. He had been taught since his childhood that rock was solid and doubt was corrupting. Either of these reasons could have been the cause, he concluded. He simply didn't know about that. What he did know, however, was that his lifelong domicile was gone. The stone that was supposed to be so strong was gone. Or, rather, it was no longer in the shape of a cave, but rather in a heap below, on top and all around him.
He didn't know how long he had been lying there. He still could not move, nor did he want to. He realized that the damage to his body must be beyond all healing. He knew he was going to die and now simply wanted it to end quickly. The sun overhead was miserably hot. He couldn't get away from it. It just beat down on him mercilessly. His body was contorted and broken - although exactly in what ways he was broken was unknown to him. He could move his fingers and toes, but not really anything else. Every breath was a tortuous labor. The simple act of lying there was excruciating. He couldn't escape the brutal reality with which he was faced. He searched his mind for some sort of escape; there was none. He felt nothing but pain and confusion. Several hours of this torture brought nothing further except darkness. Night fell. He had never felt so cold and exposed as he did now. Because he was facing up, he could see the vast expanse of stars above him. It was endless and relentless. One could not argue with naturebecause it didn't speak back. It was just there. "Why, stars, did this happen to me?" Nothing. The wind blew against him. He had nothing with which to cover himself, and would not have been able to cover himself if he did. Alone, shivering, bleeding and broken he stared up at the stars. They stared back, but said nothing.
Even if his body were able to heal from all the damage done to it, he wasn't sure he would want it to. Everything he believed in was shattered. He couldn't regain the old feeling of security, even if he could go back to living in a cave. Yet, he couldn't fathom anything more secure than that cave. Nothing was left. The silent, merciless world had shown him that security was only an illusion. Furthermore, if he couldn't trust the physical reality that he had always believed in, how could he carry on with the life philosophy that was grounded on the stability of rock homes? He shivered. The wind and cold were unbearable. "I must be dreaming," he thought. "There is no way for a person to live through this. I have to be dead." He didn't even know if he was dead or alive. He could know nothing now - except pain, confusion, and cold.
With morning came the sound of someone clambering over the debris. The noise came closer and closer. He did not recognize the voice calling out - only that it was female. Few people outside his tribe lived around here, so he couldn't conceive of who this could be. The sound finally got close enough that he knew the person could see him. However, she had not stepped into his narrow range of vision. He could hear her stop, gasp and then vomit.
A few seconds later the woman was kneeling beside him. "I don't know if there is anything I can do for you. You have a lot of injuries."
"Could you tell me what my injuries are like?"
"I'd rather not. I will say, however, that it's going to take you a long time to recover." She couldn't bring herself to describe his injuries. His arms and legs were mangled. His pelvis obviously crushed. His body contorted at awful angles. His ribs and abdomen splayed open, exposing his inner organs. Under normal circumstances a person would be dead. He didn't understand yet, however, that this wasn't a normal situation.
"Recover? You can't be serious! Even in my position I can tell that my body is beyond healing. I can't believe that I haven't died already." He spoke in gasps, barely able to get the words out. It hurt to look up in her face because the sun was behind her. That damn, brutal sun that was as unrelenting in its daytime heat as the wind was in its nighttime cold.
"Well, it's not my place to disagree. Like I said, I don't know what I can do to help you. Is there something you would like me to do?"
He considered asking her to kill him, but decided to wait a while for that. He didn't want to scare her away. Despite the pain, the heat, and the thirst, he actually felt a little better now that he had someone to talk with. He asked if she saw what had happened.
She described the same scene that he had envisioned. The rock outcropping simply broke off and fell down. The noise was tremendous. She added that she used to live in the caves, but had left them several years ago. It's not that she considered them dangerous. Rather, she simply did not like living in them. They were cramped and dusty. Besides, she didn't consider them as safe as everyone else seemed to think - mainly because of the potential for a small stumble to turn into a nasty fall.
He was stunned as he listened to her. Despite his horrible situation, he felt comforted by her voice. He couldn't believe, though, how she was talking about the caves. She was so irreverent about them. Their formidability meant nothing to her. Their connection to the gods was invisible to her. He simply couldn't understand how someone could consider living anywhere else. Yet she had - and did. He asked her about life away from the caves.
"I'm not sure anymore why I left them originally. I think it was because I realized that living in a cave - and within the tribe whose existence centered on the those stone structures - wasn't the only way things had to be. Since I wasn't very happy with the cave existence, I simply decided to leave it in hopes of finding a better way." She had tried living with temporary structure: sleeping in or under trees, or on the flatlands. She had also tried having a permanent home. Instead of inhabiting a pre-made stone enclosure, however, she tried building structures out of smaller stones, or tree limbs, or woven grass. She even tried living without a home, just meandering throughout the day and sleeping under the stars at night.
He commented on the vastness of the stars and on the ferocious magnitude they seemed to have when he viewed them without his rock home as a shelter.
She agreed at the magnitude of the heavens, but disagreed on the feeling it engendered within her. She didn't feel fear from seeing the vast celestial view. Similarly, she didn't feel fear by living in structures made of material that was less substantial than stone. Rather, she accepted that life was huge and monstrous and dangerous. Living outside a cave did not make it any more so; it just removed the illusions of self-importance and security that the caves engendered. The whole tribal life was built around maintaining those illusions of self-grandeur and immunity. The elaborate religious festivals, cave wall paintings, and obligatory ceremonial rituals did nothing besides reinforce those illusions. In addition, those illusion-maintaining practices occupied a large portion of the tribe's time (outside of the time necessary to provide for basic necessities). It seemed to her that most people must value security more than creativity and self-reliance. They seem to prefer stone walls rather than airy spaces,established rituals rather than creative experience, and pre-made ways of interpreting the world rather than the scary but enlivening experience of acknowledging that no pre-made answers exist. The only sense that can be made out of one's life is the meaning that one infuses into it.
All this talk started to scare the man. He was beginning to be grateful that he was dying. He didn't want to wrestle with the ideas caused by his falling experience, or by the ideas spoken by this woman. He couldn't go back to where he came from, and he couldn't imagine venturing into that vast, cold expanse described to him.
Sensing this, the woman's face took on a pained expression. "Listen," she said. "I have some hard news for you."
The man almost scoffed, but the pain kept him in check.
"You're not going to die," she said. "No matter how severe your injuries are, you are going to be forced to deal with them. You have to heal yourself; I can't even move you. You're going to spend a lot of cold nights like the one you endured last night, as well as brutally hot days like today. It's going to take a while to heal yourself, but you have to do it."
"What do you mean?" he asked. "I don't understand. I'm going to die soon; I can feel it. If I don't die soon, I would ask you to take me out of my misery. If that were not possible, I would ask you to drag me back to the caves or to some other shelter to relieve my suffering. What do you mean that I have to stay here in this awful condition until I heal myself?"
"In your current condition, moving you would be the worst thing I could do. I could take you back to the caves of your friends, but you would be crippled forever, lying in a huddled mass on the floor for the rest of your life. That's no existence. You would know the absurdity of the cave-myths, yet have to witness the pathetic ritualized lives of people who are afraid to look deeply at the stars - and explore any interpretation of those stars beyond the cave-myth explanations drilled into them since childhood. It would drive you insane.
"I could also drag you to a new type of shelter, but again, you would still be crippled forever, lying in a huddled mass on the floor of that shelter. No, the only option left for you is to stay right here and endure the relentlessness of existence until you find a way to forge your body back together. When you are able to move, you will have to search for new types of shelters to make. When you are able to do this, you will have a life that is beyond crippled helplessness.
"It will be a lonely process," she added. "The vast expanse of the heavens is under-appreciated if viewed from the interior of a cave. On the other hand, it is monstrous when viewed from a position of complete vulnerability. Only when you can devise your own shelter can the stars be appreciated as fully as we humans are capable of appreciating them."
He was horror-stricken. The thought of living and having to recover from this fall was more than he could bear. The terror rose up within him and threatened to overwhelm his ability to cope with it. His sanity hung by a sinew, much like his mangled hand. He looked up at the stars and thought he saw the sky in all its immensity bearing down on him. It got closer and closer until he felt claustrophobic. He shut his eyes and screamed.
She whispered in his ear. "The other thing you need to understand is that this is only a dream. It's very, very real - but only a dream."
He woke up in a cold sweat on his leather sofa.
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| Pretending To Care About Jesus Or False Advertising
| | Posted Sep 20, 2005, at 08:21 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| My sister and I were talking about how when we were growing up in the Sacramento area every once in a while there would be a church program where we were especially encouraged to invite nonmember friends. Invariably, the program would be hyper-christ-centric. There would be beautiful music, all about Jesus. Even as a young kid my sister noticed that it was a lot different than the tithing-temple-centric church she was used to. Does anyone else remember this? That has got to be the worst case of false advertising ever!
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Apparently you've never fallen for the old Amway bait and switch.
It's happened to me numerous times before in the past. It keeps morphing into diffrent forms and business fronts, but it's all the same MLM bullshit scheme that depends upon you alienating your friends by suckering them into the same pyramid scheme you've been suckered into so that they will buy tons of product of overpriced goods and line your pockets and (more importantly) those of everybody above you. Pretty soon if you can get all of your friends sucked into the scheme, next thing you know you'll have an increadible down line and you can just kick back and start counting the MCI (Money Coming In).
Now just git up off yer rusty dusty and quit bein sick and tired of bein sickntired!
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| Another Ward Clerk Sees The Light
| | Posted Sep 16, 2005, at 08:02 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| Is it just me or does there seem to be some connection between ward clerks and apostasy? In my case I think so. I've been sitting on the back bench peering into the foyer long enough, so it's time for me to walk into the foyer and join the growing crowd. Over the last year I've been doing a lot of self-examination (good idea Socrates) and have come to the conclusion that I never truly was a TBM even though I may have played one at church. My parents were inactive until I was about 12, at which point my father became ultra active. As a result, I missed out on much of the essential indoctrination that occurs at an early age. I rebelled during my later adolescence and swore I would never go on a mission or go to BYU. At 18 I left home and had a change of heart. I ended up going on a mission. Afterwards, I went to BYU and got married in the temple about a year later. My wife and I were inactive during most of our 8 years at BYU. We moved out of Utah, the church tracked us down and we have been active for the last15 years.
Reflecting on my life, although I thought I had a "testimony", I don't think I was ever really convinced. I always felt out of step with the culture of Mormonism. I typically avoided going to socials and have never had any true friends in the church. I always thought that this was due to my differing interests, more liberal thinking or something else wrong with me. It now occurs to me that I have always had questions and doubts and have never really bought into the full program. This would explain why I haven't given my "testimony" in F&T; meeting since my mission and why I always felt weird about the temple which I haven't been to in about 10 years, etc. Essentially, in my latest period of activity I've been "dutiful" but low key, avoiding the leadership track (i.e., good ward clerk material).
Anyway, about 8 months ago I decided that I was going to confront my doubts and questions with an open mind and began studying. The rest is history (pun intended). Presently, I am trying to negotiate the rules of disengement with my immediate family being the biggest concern. The foyer has served a valuable purpose in keeping me sane during my studies and the resulting emotional roller coaster. Thanks for being there, and thanks for listening while I rambled.
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| Rejecting The Rod - The Doug Wright Show "Honest To Pete" And The Issue Of Nuclear Waste Storage In Utah
| | Posted Sep 14, 2005, at 08:18 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| Listening to the radio yesterday I accidentaly found myself listening to the Doug Wright show "honest to Pete". Anyway he was giddy with excitement over the Church's pronouncement of "regret" over the efforts to make Utah a storage center for spent nuclear fuel. Here were my observations:
1) This issue of nuclear waste storage in Utah is not new. I believe the Goshute tribe has been at this for at least 8 years. Why didn't the church speak out sooner? Is it possible that this would've gotten so far along had they put the kibosh on it from the start? Why must they feign reluctance? Everyone knows they are the clearing house for political capital in Utah.
2)The language of statement was almost ambivalent. Oh, you just "regret" the federal regulators decision. You don't whole-heartedly oppose it? This is their feeble attempt at subltly influencing politics and public policy, but at the same time leaving it in just a way that they can still claim to be apolitical. So much for standing for something. More like stand for something in private, hem and haw around it in public, always leave yourself an out in case it gets messy.
3) Wright and his guest, Sen Hatch, were obviously emboldened by the church's statement. It was obvious that the church's decision to weigh in on this had its desired effect. I'll try to paraphase Wright's comment "Well now, won't it be interesting to see how this changes the momentum of the debate in the [state] Legislature." I don't understand how one would need the validation to oppose something like nuclear waste. Isn't it a no-brainer? I was also troubled by the lock-step reaction. The statement of the church while innocuous to outsiders, is a code-like fatwa for the believers (as evidenced by the Wright and Hatch's reaction) to "take the gloves off, you have our blessing".
4) Last time I checked the church itself pays no taxes on the vast real estate holdings or mountains of money it has in its coffers. What makes their opinion so valued on the issue? For me it reverts back to the principle behind the laws preventing non-profit orgs from getting into electoral politics. That principle being that organizations subsidized without the positive consent of tax payers should keep their mouths shut and stay out of the political process.
Here's the actual statement:
"We regret [the] decision by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to authorize the issuance of a license that would allow storage of radioactive waste in Skull Valley. Storage of nuclear waste in Utah is a matter of significant public interest that requires thorough scrutiny."
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| Some Of You Do Not "Get" How Manipulative The Church's Obsession With Sexual Purity Is
| | Posted Sep 11, 2005, at 05:55 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| If this is you, if you do not get how manipulative the church system is with regards to sexual purity... here is a true to life example as to why the masturbation saga keeps resurfacing. It warps the mind and self-esteem of many young people who live through it. After writing this, I am done with this topic for a good long while... too painful to keep rehashing.
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What is that sound?
pause.... tap tap, tap tap.... pause....
It grew louder as I practically leaned off the edge of my chair to hear for it. Then it dawned on me. Cripes. When did he start walking with a cane? Luckily, being a man of god will show him restraint and he won't try to beat me with it.
The hallway was dark. The activity in the gymnasium around the corner had just begun on this Saturday night. I would rather be playing basketball tonight than having to sit through this next hour. Heck, I would rather be doing my homework than to sit through this dreadful meeting.
"Well, hello Mike. Glad you could make it. Sorry I am late", said the man.
"...'sallright" I mumbled, unsure if this really was allright.
Here we go again. The mental self-chastisement resurfaced... the naggings screamed out at me as I got up out of my chair:
What was wrong with me? Why the repeated trips to this office? Why was I the only one sitting here in this hallway? No one else had this terrible habit. I hated myself for it. I hated that I would be sitting shamefully with my family again during the sacrament. I hated that I, the youth of Zion, had indeed faltered yet again in unworthiness.
I followed him into his office. The room was already hotter than the midday sun during double sessions at football practice. I had thought I would start this school year off strong and in control. I was wrong. Just like the other years. I took the obligatory seat across from him and his four foot by eight foot faux mahogany desk. I sat in this chair every Sunday in our sixteen year old Priest quorum group discussions.
This judge in Israel fumbled through his papers. I knew he pretended to look for something that was not there.
I could tell he already knew. He always knew. It was his job to know. As Christ's representative for His congregation, it was his responsibility to be in tune with the spirit enough to know these things. God gave him these powers of discernment. So of course he knew!
With that thought I blushed out of anger and self-deprecation. Dang it! Stop already! No good. Crossing oneself never worked. I would just have to sit there blushing, humiliated and ashamed that I had failed to honor my priesthood ... again.
He took off his glasses, and forcefully rubbed the spot we priests jokingly called "The Unibrow". It was as if the glasses had irritated him profusely. But, I knew why he was irritated. He had to come all the way to the church after a warm meal with his family to talk about my lame problems. Leave his life and address mine. All because I could not seem to control myself. How pathetic was that. What in the heck was wrong with me?
He drew in a deep breath and he looked at me as he held it momentarily. Suddenly, In a heavy and drawn out exhalation of air out from his lungs he began:
"Ssssssssssssssssssso,"
pause....
He peered over the top of his glasses,
"Young man, how is your priesthood holding up? Bright and shiny?".
It was a friendly tone he used but there wasn't a smile attached to it.
And I wished he would not breathe out like that. He had very offensive breath. How could he not know that his breath was that bad? I had heard his question and I was stunned. Fixating on the smell did not stave off the awkward pause in the room.
I also noted he got right to the point this time. Obviously, I hadn't heeded well enough his advice in the past. I put out spotty performance in responding valiantly in past visits.
No chit chat this time? No how is your 3.5 grade point average coming along... any new songs on the piano? or even how was football practice today? The man was all star defensive lineman in high school, loves the game, and he can't even recognize that I am something other than a troubled kid with a jerk off problem. He came at me straight out of the chutes. Ruthless.
pause.
"uh... I... uh... I wasn't... uh... valiant"
I gripped the sides of my chair so hard that a raised rogue staple in the upholstery under the right arm dug into my cuticle. That hurt. The dam broke. Tears welled up. I had told myself I would not cry. Where were the tissues? He always had tissues on his desk in that crocheted white funky tissue box cover of his. He made no move to console me. He never did so I did not expect it. I hated crying. It was just that I was so humiliated. I was so inexplicably frustrated. At least I didn't sob. I wiped the lower rims of my eyes to dry up any rogue tears that tried to escape down my face. I had to maintain some dignity some how.
"Mike. You really have got to get past this. We have been through the steps of repentance before. Where do you see yourself missing the mark?"
Missing the mark? Geez. I have no clue. I have done everything he had asked and then some. I had prayed my guts out so many times, so many ways.
A flash back to three weeks ago entered and left my head.
I had done some high powered serious soul searching.
I sought from the depths of my soul the cleansing power of the atonement. After all, it was the 2nd principle of Christ's Gospel. I knew that Nephi taught that there is no temptation save the lord prepares a way for us to escape it. That only served to confirm how I knew I was the problem. I also knew I only needed faith the size of a mustard seed and then I could be empowered to overcome as Jesus declared in the New Testament. He said we could move mountains with that tiny particle of faith. I was not looking to move a mountain, I was looking to climb one.
I had a specific purpose in mind when I climbed Mount Toro. I wanted to follow Nephi's example and use it to get nearer to god. At least, that was my plan. I figured somehow the physical act could show God I was serious about this desperate pleading I kept offering.
Joseph departed to his grove, I would have my mountain.
When I summited, I wasted no time. I had played it out ten times in my head as I hiked over the last two hours. The top of this mountain would be my temple. My secret sanctuary. My altar of sacrifice.
No sooner did I realize that I was suddenly about to address my Heavenly Father with the one item I longed to be banished from my life than my heart spilled over. My heart leaped into my throat as I felt every ounce of genuine sincerity inside of me get called to attention. I was racked with remorse and I fell to my knees with my hands gripping the roots of my hair. I practically doubled over as I shouted my prayer in halted jerking sobs.
"Oh... my... God!" I cried out in pain. "I am so sorry to bring this before you! I know you healed the blind! Won't you consider healing my heart?"
Looking back, I believe I shouted so that I would be sure God would have to hear his begging child.
There was no anger in my tones, in fact, much of my noise got carried away on the windy breeze slipping by me in the trees. Nevertheless, my prayer gushed out of me as I begged for a change of heart.... as I implored my maker to fix me. I told him my fears, my secret insecurities, my most inner thoughts. I was willing to do whatever I could to achieve His holy assistance in getting this mess behind me.
He made me, he could fix me. How could he not see I was doing everything and more for this to happen? All that was missing was his providential hand.
Suddenly, I felt physical pain in my heart when I realized that as a sinner, God could cleanse me as decreed in his holy word. All it took was a particle of faith to get that set in motion! But another condition for the cleansing was that I realize significantly the gravity of guilt played out from causing God's son torturous pain in the garden of Gethsemane. I had to own up to the fact that I placed a burden on the son of God that only he could expiate.
The beginnings of that thought sent me into absolute horror as I contemplated my role. I had been taught that Jesus died for my sins. I was now experiencing the depth and breadth of that concept. I was feeling the torture... maybe this was the cleansing power I sought! There was a calm that quieted my anguished sobs. I reflected on how I felt inside. It was nothing huge, but yet it was huge. I had contemplated my part in the great plan of salvation and had been overcome with unspeakable emotion. But that was how God worked, right? I stood up a moment later from my absolution, firmly resolved in my mind that God had answered my prayer.
"Mike...."
"Huh?..." I blinked. My eyes were dry, I must not have blinked for awhile.
"Mike, you were far away there for a few seconds.... I was just asking if you could see where maybe you are missing the mark in the repentance process"
I think he could have gut punched me and I would not have flinched as hard as I did with his question.
I knew I had not missed the mark. Yet, obviously I had. I was so confused. I wanted to relate the story but it seemed sacrilegious to do it. I had my communion with the highest holiest being in the universe... and I had failed Him yet again! How could I possibly explain what happened to me on the mountain when I just admitted to him that I am ground zero again? It would seem like I perhaps enjoyed torturing the Son of God.
That is a sick, sick, vile thought Mike. What is WRONG with you? Do you enjoy it? No I don't enjoy it dang it. I am just a weird guy with a weird problem.
But was there truth to it? I had my epiphany. And I had just as quickly backslid not even three weeks later. No wonder God wouldn't change me. Being God, He knew I was just going to mess up again anyways. I did not deserve the cleansing blood of His son in my life. Such changes only come to those with pure intent and sincere repentance.
I walked out of the office, physically ill from my plight. My church authority figure in my life gently emphasized to me that when I sin in the way that I have been, all the former sins thus repented of return to me.
Oh. That was not what I needed to hear. But that was what God's message through his mouthpiece to me was on this late summer's night...
I drove home with my window open. The night air on my face helped to calm my stomach. I pulled up to the house and sat in my car for a minute. The "lights are on" chime dinged in my ears but I could not hear it... or at least I was so fixated on my problems that the noise's significance failed to register. I walked up to the back door. I was greeted cheerfully by my mother whom I ignored as I slipped past her, zombie like, towards the stairs leading up to my room. I closed the door. I climbed into bed. I thought the forbidden thoughts of giving up, giving in, ending it all. Forbidden. Doing that would make things even worse for me.
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| The Fountain of Knowledge?
| | Posted Sep 9, 2005, at 07:12 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| I recently saw a presentation on IBM's WebFountain, and if the Strengthening The Members Committee (STMC) isn't already signed up, they ought to seriously have their heads examined. Anyway, the presentation definitely got the gears turning in my evil apostatemind as to what the would do with a WebFountain account. And let's be honest. $300K/year for an account would be peanuts to the COB.
As an STMC lurker, I would want a way to #1, compile my own mirrored archives of problem sites. But #2, I would want a way to create dossiers for high-profile posters, especially those who may be closet apostates who need to be weeded from the fold. In fact, if they were smart, the STMC and the Marketing/Branding folks could and should combine their efforts to determine not only what the evil apostates are saying about them, but the TBM's as well.
Now we all know that Aimoo and RfM have pretty crappy "Search" capabilities. From the STMC's perspective, the cyber infospace presents a constantly moving target, in the guise of changing casts of screen names, avatars, and alter egos. Not to mention all of those "true but not useful" discussions. And WRT sites like RFM, you have window on only the last two weeks worth of postings.
I'm just a poorboy, and can't afford a WebFountain account. But I do happen to have a full-meal deal version of Adobe Acrobat 7.0 installed on my desktop that I've been playing around with. It has a cool feature that will let you create PDF documents from a website. You can specify the URL you want to pull down, as well as how many levels deep you want the program to pull HTML and images from.
So just for giggles, I turned Acrobat loose on RfM, and the Foyer recently. Once properly configured, you can close down the Acrobat window and let it do its thing, while you go about your regular business. About 20 minutes later, both sites were indexed, to the tune of about 600 pages of text and images, and about 7.5 MB.
And the beauty of this is that you then have a PDF document that you can turn loose Acrobat's catologuing and search features. I figure you could probably pretty easily set about XML-tagging text you wanted to be able to use to perform statistical trend analysis, or for dossier building.
Foreign Policy magazine has a teaser cover this month, looking at future trends, along the lines of "Say goodbye to..."
The most relevant article was called "Say goodbye to anonymity."
OTOH, it will be interesting to see if TSCC follows corporate trends and jumps on the bandwagon. Or, as is more likely, whether they are late technology adopters.
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| A "Hermetically Sealed" Church To Keep The Would-Be Saints In Line
| | Posted Aug 31, 2005, at 07:29 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| Someone posted a line at RfM the other day that I found hilariously accurate. Regarding the eternal families doctrine, this person argued that the only people who really believe it are those who were born and raised in the "hermetically sealed" environment of the church.
I think the description is apt, don't you? Mormonism survives to this day not because of the superiority of its doctrines or practices but because the church is unusually successful at stuffing its adherents into a kind of bubble, a "hermetically sealed" environment where not only are they discouraged from considering alternatives, they're hardly even aware that alternatives exist.
Particularly in the Corridor, Mormons honestly believe that they are the only religion on the planet which claims access to the Spirit, which believes in revelation and prophecy, or which has a concept of eternal families. The church teaches members that they need not go anywhere for the important sources of knowledge but the church itself. All answers are to be had in the Mormon standard works. The prophets give you all the information you need to know to get by in the modern world -- their messages, after all, are for you specifically. It surrounds missionaries in a bubble of exacting rules and demands so that they have no time or desire to process the otherwise horizon-broadening experiences they're exposed to; or at least so that missionaries take all their experiences and filter them through the lens of Mormonism.
And in the greatest coup of all, the church ruthlessly controls the flow of information regarding its past, closing off all avenues of discourse except the officially-sanctioned histories and doctrines that emanate from church headquarters. Mormons who might flirt with unorthodox history are warned that "the church is either all true or nothing but a fraud" and thus scared away. Those who persist are made into cautionary examples, disciplined or excommunicated so that the faithful can dismiss any of their insights with a Dogbertian wave of the paw.
Mormonism is most successful in a bubble. It works best only when its adherents are ignorant -- by circumstance or by choice -- of the world around them. Seen from within, it does seem remarkably coherent and logical; it has a lot of answers. But it succeeds only because it also controls the questions.
Ignorance is the milk and willful ignorance the meat of Mormonism.
Just my $.02 for your edification.
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| Creative Writing: Leaving Sameness Behind, Confrontations W/ SP
| | Posted Aug 26, 2005, at 03:32 PM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| I briskly marched up to the concrete walkway with my hard soled loafers making a clean "clack clack clack" sound that echoed off the masonry comprising the south side of the chapel walls. It was such a cold night. I noted how my breath billowed out of my mouth as I climbed the stairs that led me past the chapel and up to the standard issue, black-metal framed double doors that served to welcome all who did not question. These doors were also housed in masonry walls. The walls had been secure and unquestioned emblems of fortitude for me all these years... it's a bit strange to have to try to mentally reassign them as walls of a prison of sorts now. What was loyally perceived as a stronghold of safety and certainty was now a precariously collapsable house of cards. My breath was heavy and I was annoyed that I had given up my chance to ride my mountain bike in the hills for this. I saw him getting out of his volvo. He looked my way for half a moment but made no gesture. Seeing my breath, He probably assumed I was smoking. He did have that pained expression of "Well, this is awkward" written across his face. Whatever. I knew he would instinctively do a S.O.P. worthiness tobacco sniff test and be satisfied. Not that it mattered anyhow.
So it was that I had once again been summoned by the powers that be for the, seemingly, now quarterly confrontation with said powers. The inquisition. The gut check. The subtle yet dexterous reminder that I was to submit to his authority. I could almost set my watch by the summons. That awkward, out of the blue phone call from him, the weirdness of the chit chat, the poignant reminders that we should talk and in fact would next Tuesday fit in my schedule? I never see this man other than our visits. I had imagined my name was carefully placed in this man's black Franklin planner 120 days sequentially and systematically throughout his year. It couldn't be this synchronously timed otherwise. I could also imagine my name etched in the color coded pencil that he also used for scripture marking but my name was assigned a color likely to stand as a sentinel, "problematic, must deal with". No doubt he used the same color for my name as he uses to annotate all of God's scriptural warnings to the heathens. I wondered if he anxiously pressed hard when he wrote my name into his book of life. I was bothered by the fact that I was the reason his wife and kids would not see him tonight. This man feigned concern over my condition so well I almost believed him. Almost. Anyhow, such pictorial editing in my mind amused me and set my mind at ease for what was about to ensue.
I wondered if he dreaded our meetings as much as I did.
"Well, here we are..." He started.
"Yes, we are here" I replied, thoughtlessly.
"I am glad we have met tonight, I ... ah... would like to just let you know that... uh....I mean what I would like to begin with is... ah.... I should ask you a few questions."
Obviously, he is in a stupor of thought, I thought to myself, At least we aren't starting this one out with a word of prayer to his God.
Probing, he asked in an almost upbeat tone, "Any progression since we last spoke?".
I played along, "You mean with my testimony?"
**pause**
Hesitating, he offered, "Yes, uh... we last spoke about Joseph's sexual ... uh... relations with women outside of Emma..."
I said without enthusiasm, "...And you concurred that you believed Joseph did indeed have sex outside of Emma..."
All in one breath and with an odd smile he quipped, "Mike, I said that Joseph restored the Gospel of Jesus Christ to earth and if his sexual actions are found outside the bounds that the Lord has set, then in the next life, he will have to answer for those sins. I also said that his having sex outside of Emma does not preclude the fact that he restored the True and Everlasting Gospel to the earth."
I responded quickly to give the air that I was almost ignoring his explanations, " I guess I have progressed then. I have taken your affirmation and boldly used it as fuel to fire up the passion to find if Smith was deceitful in other ways."
**pause**
I could see that was the not the answer he was looking for.
**awkward pause**
"Hmmm...", he doled out thoughtfully.
"Hmmmm...." as if vocally pausing would salvage the situation.
Finally he asked, "Well then, where are you with all of this?"
Careful now Mike, caution.... caution, you are entering the "self-incrimination" zone. One wrong sentance and you could jeopardize it all.
I answered, "Well, I have to say that I am caught between the church, my wife, my kids, everyone's future, and a moral imperative that says I should be true when truth emerges. You see... others have been braver than I in the past and have sacrificed their lives for truth. What I am being asked to risk pales in comparison. But the founding fathers of this country set in motion the events that would ensure I would be able to think, do and be how I see fit. I can pursue life liberty and happiness based upon logical conclusions that all facts tell me... while not having to lap up some presented dogmatic approach to living handed down to me from my parents and perpetuated by peers of the same like minded tribe"
Hell. That sounded too rehearsed. Shit. What did he expect me to do? Blast at him from the hip with nothing prepared?
He surprised me with a outright chuckle, I felt the mood change to one where he was now a playful uncle who loved nothing less than to give me noogies on the top of my head. He blurted out, "...Mike, Mike, Mike! How is The Spirit ever going to get through that thick skull of yours if you are always resisting it like this?" Was it an attempt to get on my level? What was that?
I cringed. Out came the quad. 20 bucks says he goes for Galations. He did not bother to ask me where mine was this time. Last time he acted so shocked that I had failed to bring my scriptures to a private meeting with him. I had hedged in defense with how I was unaware that it was disrespectful to not carry my scriptures with me to meetings with him. Sure enough though, he flipped open to the first battalion of artillery to start the night off. Galations. The fruits of the spirit.
My heart quickened. I knew what needed to be done. Now or never! Geez us. Was I really going to do this? I found strength. I am sure my eyes dilated and I felt my breathing increase slightly...blood rushed into my head and my temples pounded just slightly.
He paused when he saw me fishing around for my wallet in my back pocket. I did not appreciate the pause as it created an unatural focus on what I was doing. I had seen it in my mind's eye more inconspicous and fluid than this. The cushioned relief society chair squeaked under my weight shifting torso as I sent my fingers on the daunting task of producing the lynch pin that held all the ultimatums presently in front of me at bay. I found access into my back pocket. That's strange, why had I buttoned it? I never button it. I produced the small rectangle piece of paper. This rectangular declaration once held by me as a sacred emblem of my willingness to submit all of my wills, desires, passions, beliefs to the god or godlessness who produced it now served only as a hollow reminder that I still belonged to some thing I did not believe in anymore... and that practically no one knew it but myself. I noted a tremble in my fingers as I brought it to light. It hadn't been used for a session in over three years. I had told half truths to get it nine months prior. And the man in front of me was the recipient of my misdirection. Oddly, I felt afraid of relinquishing it. I thought I was past all this. How could I just give it up? I had sworn and sealed my swearing with the life blood of my mortal existance that I would uphold what this rectangle represented. I had done so over 50 times in the last 15 years.
Confronting the finality of the situation, I placed it on his 4 foot by 8 foot faux mahogany desk and sent it sliding quickly across towards him. It flipped up and over acrobatically displaying playfulness as it flew in his direction landing squarely between his hand and his well marked book of scripture. I stifled a smile as I processed a quick mental note that went something to the effect that the unannounced flip meant I had turned some corner in my life. Turning over a new leaf?
There was a moment of silence that I found also fitting for the moment. I fancied we were giving respect for the dead. A funeral for the moment gave way to the realization that I was forevermore done with dogma. There was no turning back now. I had crossed over. The silence was engulfed, however, in an annoyingly loud buzzing hum of the overhead fluorescent lights. How had I missed that noise the last three times in this office? It was deafening.
Walking out of that office I noticed that the texture in the carpet was the same as the scratchy yet durable kid proof fabric covering on the walls. Everything was a shade of drab brown. The popcorn ceiling blended into the sameness as did the bumps and randomness in the bricks. It was all so obviously and overwhelmingly... the same. No deviations. No accenting colors. No focal points. No punch. No pizaz. No flair. Barely any art on the walls. Just one, no frills, meshing, sameness of fabric texture and pattern. How symbolic. I noticed for the first time that the picture of Jesus was half the size as the first presidency's photo on the wall outside his office. I also noted that there was a 1" gap between the hard commercial grade carpet and the bottom of the door. This meant that the three persons waiting for their turn to speak with this man tonight had likely heard our entire discussion. I hoped they took notes.
I walked into the chapel for what I new would be the very last time. I almost wished for some shaking or shocking visitational outpouring to warn me of the error of my ways. Perhaps that would ring out to me Alma the Younger-esque. But I knew, intuitively now, that it would not come. I sat down. I took it all in. Imagine that... just over three cognicent decades of my life spent in weekly attendance here. This was the factory. The machinery that ran this place and produced the feelings that led me down the paths towards my habits of thought inbreeding... was broken now. Strange how it could break for me yet run flawlessly for hundreds of others who showed up to feed it, oil it, prop it up and polish it every week. I noted how the chapel took on a different persona being empty like this. I am used to being surrounded when I am here. I feel out of place now. Where are all those same people talking the same, acting the same, dressing the same, being the same, charting the same undeviatingly devoted same course, even sitting in the same place week after week? with the same food storage and the same monthly editorials delivered to their doorsteps? Where were they? It was as if the level of sameness between them, this building and the factory had grown so absurdly evolved that the four walls of this factory consumed them entirely. They were here. I could feel them. Yet they were not.
I allowed my thoughts to wander.
No new converts ever broke into the sameness of this machine. Or if they tried, they were spit out and simultaneously rejected. They were not the same. Sure, the more headstrong ones lasted a couple of years, but they eventually quit trying to break in. Admittedly, a few made it over the hump but were exceptions to the rule. Over the years, I gathered it was the quirky comments they offered up in classes, wearing the wrong clothes, or obvious lack of proper breeding that did it in for them. Nevertheless, I had to hand it to them now for following some sort of heartfelt conviction. Admirable. Misguided, but admirable. Sitting there alone, without the propaganda machine spinning the hits... the oldies but goldies, I paused to see what would come to me.... if anything.
Stale cheerios.....
Apple Juice...
I picked up a hymnal. Nice. Some mother had allowed her child to use it as a coloring book.
Anything else come? Yes. A powerful loathing for this place that had tricked me into giving up some of the best years of my existence for a sham cause call to arms. A pungent recognition that I had now become vastly different than everything in this factory washed over me.
I wanted to scream. Instead I stood up, stood tall, and turned my back. I walked away from the machine... the factory. I let it spit me out.
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| The Church's Policy On Aging Parents
| | Posted Aug 19, 2005, at 12:05 PM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| Does anyone else remember hearing conference talks on caring for elderly parents? Essentially, we are not supposed to put them in homes, but rather consider it our blessing and privelege to care for them right up to the end? Warning: this topic may be sensitive...
I just got back from visiting my aunt tonight (who, by the way, is very distressed about my leaving the church, but that is another story). My grandmother is living with her and is in her 94th year. Grandma is at the point where she can hardly walk, and can barely swallow her food anymore, and falls constantly. My aunt is the oldest of three children, and was unable to have children herself. My mother and my uncle both have many children, and therefore, it seemed the logical conclusion that since this aunt had "so much spare time, not having kids and grandkids and the like", the bulk of care for my grandmother should go to my aunt.
My aunt has been caring for her now for over eight years, and is completely worn out in body, spirit, and mind. Tonight she was so depressed. My mother really isn't in a position to take my grandmother and care for her full time(again, another story), and my uncle simply won't take care of her (can you say, "typical mormon male chauvinist that's woman's work pig"?) and so the obvious: it is time to put my grandmother in a home.
But oh, the guilt! We are not supposed to put our parents in old people's homes! Even though it makes no sense not to - my aunt has a bad hip and back herself and physically should not be lifting her mother - oh, how the Lord will hold it against us, and oh how our deceased loved ones are going to beat us when we all gather together in that celestial kingdom in the sky.
This is yet just one more way the church throws out a lot of guilt and bad advice (alias "commandments") and messes with people's lives. Don't deal in reality! Let guilt be your guide!
I am trying to talk my aunt and help her see that it is for the best for everyone - she would gain her life and sanity back, my grandma would have trained caregivers that were physically strong enough to lift her, plus medical staff around to help. Yes, becoming that old and incapacitated is sad to watch, but it is a reality of life, it is not my aunt's fault, and she should have a life of her own.
This church really is a gerontocracy... at the expense of the middle class worker bees....
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| "Super" Dell Discriminates Against Non-TBMs
| | Posted Aug 8, 2005, at 07:30 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| If any of you have watched Utah television on any station for more than a couple hours, you have undoubtedly watched the
incredibly obnoxious commercials of the "Totally Awesome Computers" guy, Dell Schanze.
In this week's Salt Lake City Weekly, he's the featured story. It tells of many of his legal troubles, including discriminating
against non-TBMs. Here's an excerpt from the article:
Some speculate that Schanze's growing mistrust led him to cast all non-Mormon employees as de facto thieves,
because they couldn't "talk to God," as he often said.
Within a week of hiring on in 2000 [Cameron] Landies said he was subjected to an audit of sorts to determine "if I had my
spiritual s-t together." It was around 11 p.m. at the downtown store. Landies recalls he'd been working off the clock since 8,
when Schanze plopped him down on a monitor box to inquire of Landies' religious leanings -- specifically, whether he was LDS,
which he is not.
"You don't got it," Landies recalls the diagnosis, which freaked him out and left him fearing for his job. "Something's wrong
with you."
Self-described Jack Mormon and former Totally Awesome store manager Jeremy Whipple quit the company in disgust in 2002. He
said he got the same treatment as Landies that night, albeit with a more encouraging verdict. "You're close, man. You almost got
it. You just need to be going to church more."
Derek Nielsen is convinced he fell afoul of Schanze's spiritual prerequisite soon after his swift rise to general manager and
wunderkind salesman by 1999. A one-time LDS missionary, Nielsen still considers himself a devout Christian, but he's also taken
up shamanism. His beliefs include the use of certain hallucinogens -- he mentioned peyote and cannabis -- which he believes
enhance spiritual understanding.
At one time the boss's right-hand man, an "idiotic joke" outed Nielsen as a "Satan worshiper." Or, at least that's how he
says Schanze referred to him after Nielsen's cousin, who worked at another of Schanze's stores, decided to send hiim a marijuana
plant via the company courier. Even though Nielsen says he had no part in the prank, Schanze demoted him, docked his pay, and
scrapped his bonuses, upon which Nielsen quit.
Schanze ultimately refused to accept the resignation but, according to Nielsen's deposition, Schanze told him he was
"following Satan," "didn't have the flow of God," and could no longer be trusted to run the company. The demotion stood, but
Schanze restored Nielsen's pay, telling him the only reason he wasn't fired is because he was the best salesman in the company.
"It is his religion to smoke weed ... and I didn't fire him!" Schanze exclaimed. "Why? Because he was doing a good job; I
don't discriminate against people."
"He didn't fire me," Nielsen conceded, "but he closed the door for me and ultimately pushed me out of the company," another
alleged victim of the forced heathen exodus. (Salt Lake City Weekly, August 4, 2005; page 23)
It should also be noted that in the article in question, it is reported that Schanze once proposed a billboard campaign to let
the world know that "gay people are scumbags."
Further, the City Weekly received an anonymous audio CD that contained "either an audio outtake of a SuperDell spot never meant
for public consumption, the spot-on imitation of a malicious imposter, or the crafty editing job of a vengeful sound guy."
Here's the transcript (you can listen to the actual spot online at slweekly.com):
"Hey! This is SuperDell at Totally Awesome Computers! Did you hear about the stupid gay rodeo? Whatever, dude! And then
people are like talking about, 'Oh, gay marriage.' Freak! Gay marriage? What next, schizophrenics marrying themselves? I guess.
Ha, ha. I'm sorry, if you think you're a Tinkerbell, you might want to get yourself fixed. Whoa, ha, ha, ha, ha!
"Tell ya what, for being rude and abusive to homosexuals, if you're, if you're a faggot, come on in and buy a computer. I'll
give you a hundred bucks off -- you'll need it for a psychological evaluation. OK, ha, ha, I don't know if I can finish this
commercial. I think they're going to kick this one off the air.
"Come to Totally Awesome Computers, where, ah, we're straight! I mean, we got, I mean we got the straight-up deal. And you
can just get, you know, US Robotics modem, Creative Lab sound card, rippin' video card, Asus motherboard, all the cool stuff, he,
Totally Awesome."
Click Here For Original Link Or Thread.
Link to Dell's Story: http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/200...
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| Inside The Psyche Of TBM PhDs
| | Posted Aug 3, 2005, at 08:10 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| Scoutmaster's post about his TBM friend with a PhD got me to thinking about how two contrasting world views reside in the same head. Your thoughts and critiques are welcome:
In my encounters with believing latter day saints, the argument is often raised, that "so and so has a PhD, and he/she believes". The individual often then argues that any claim that the church is not true is a simultaneous claim to be more intelligent than the TBM PhD. Due to the commonality of this argument to the appeal to authority often used by TBMs, below are some potential arguments for how having a PhD may make it more difficult for some TBM PhDs to come to grips with the reality of the church.
Late Arriving Critical Thinking Skills
First, along with the PhD comes the ability to discount knowledge. PhDs are trained to critically evaluate information and being willing to point out BS. For example, just because the Dr. Phil says XYZ, doesn't make it so. This gives the TBM scholar the tool of being critical... or of feeling secure in discounting information from others. Although at first glance, it would appear that this skill would work against remaining TBM, one has to remember that it is very likely that the majority of TBM PhDs were TBM before they were PhD. TBM beliefs were engrained before the new rules for critically evaluating information were acquired. Hence, the skill of criticality is more likely to be used to comfortably discount attacks on the church, but rarely turned on the church itself. A metaphor could be useful. Gaining a PhD is like acquiring the ability to throw up "breastworks of timbers" around a city to protect it. While such a wall could be a formidable barrier to an enemy trying to enter, it does little toprotect from dissenters already inside the wall. Likewise, the PhD can help prevent the individual from being persuaded by poor data and arguments, but it does little to protect him/her from long held beliefs and assumptions.
Built in Need Satisfaction
Second, the PhD may act to increase the amount of social pressure for testimony preservation. TBMs seem to hold believing scientists in high-regard, which would lead to positive reinforcement of the TBM PhDs spiritual contributions. That is, the TBM PhD would be more likely to receive attention, deference, praise, and reverence. These would serve to satisfy the individual's Need for Affiliation. In addition, if education level is positively associated with hierarchal level in church leadership, then it could also lead to satisfaction of an individuals Need for Power. Such a need-satisfying context increases the costs of breaking from such an organization.
Natural Cognitive Dissonance Resolution
Third, the PhD could play a role in a person's response to cognitive dissonance. The TBM PhD experiences cognitive dissonance when he/she comes across information that is inconsistent with the TBM world view. To relieve the dissonance, the PhD has to either discount his/her prior experience, judgment, and choices or discount the non-conforming information. It could be argued that having a PhD makes it less likely that the person can repudiate their prior choices to bring their attitudes and beliefs in consonance with other information. Any confidence, arrogance, or self-assurity that comes from having the degree would act to decrease the probability that he/she would discount past choices. Discounting the other information is the psychologically easier choice. Perhaps it could be simply said, that their expertise in one area leads them to a sense of security in their judgment in other areas of their lives.
Demystification of Science
Fourth, the PhD acts to lower the person's esteem of science. As a researcher, the PhD realizes that science is not perfect. He/she realizes that scientific inquiry still involves judgment, biases, measurement limitations. This information, likely makes it easier for the TBM PhD to discount "science" that produces information discrediting the church by attributing it to one of several limitations in science. With science taken off of its pedestal, there is plenty of room for a prophet.
Hard vs Soft Sciences
Fifth, my experience is that PhDs in the physical sciences do not hold the social sciences in high esteem. There are "hard" (real) sciences like chemistry, physics, etc and there are "soft" (hokey) sciences like psychology, sociology, history, etc. This bias, if held, would also make it very easy for the TBM PhD in the hard sciences to discount findings of historians and explanations provided by the psychological paradigm. Scientists in such fields may have less experience dealing with the imperfect measurement and data that plague such subjects, and find it easier to discount any uncomfortable findings as being the result of this "bad data".
In conclusion, although the "smart people believe" argument is persuasive and pervasive in the church, there is reason to believe that such trust is flawed. Humans with PhDs are still humans, and are subject to human frailties that may even increase the probability of them remaining TBM. I would be interested in seeing the proportion of PhDs in the social sciences (e.g., psychology, sociology, archeology, history, etc) that join the church after having received the PhDs from research oriented programs. My hypothesis would be that the proportion would be extremely small. Scientist's belief in myth is due to their human psychology and not their systematic methodology.
Click Here For Original Link Or Thread.
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| The Top 10 Hardest Questions For TBMS To Answer
| | Posted Jul 21, 2005, at 07:56 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| I was checking out subjects over on the FAIR message board and found this one that I thought would be a good subject to post here. On the FAIR board it very quickly disintergrated into an argument about the trinity as one God or three different Gods and got off subject. So I thought I would introduce the thread here. The following are my Top 10 Hardest Questions for TBMs to Answer: These are in no particular order.
1) Why is there a total lack of any evidence (from any scientific source) to support the supposed true events that took place as told in the BoM somewhere in the American continent?
2) Since the actual Egyptian papyri that JS supposely translated into the BoA was found in 1967 and when shown to Egyptian language experts for there translation and found to have no connection whatsoever to Abraham or the translation that JS came up with, how can this be explained? (see the book, "by his own hand upon papyrus" by Charles M. Larson)
3) Why is there several versions of the 1st vision story told by JS and why is there no evidence that any of the early converts to the Church (before 1838) had knowledge of this supposed event?
4) Why did JS introduce polygamy to the Church and why did he marry many different women without the knowledge or consent of his wife, Emma? Also why did he marry many women who were already married to other men and why did he marry teenagers, one at least as young as 14?
5) Why was the story of the restoration of the lesser and higher priesthood by angels not known by members of the Church until much later than when the Church was organized on April 6, 1830? (see the very well documented book, "The Mormon Hierarchy, Origins of Power" by D. Michael Quinn)
6) Why did the Church not allow black men to have the priesthood (even if they had one drop of Negro blood) before the change made in 1978 and why did BY, Ezra T. Benson, and other past GAs make such racist statements concerning the blacks?
7) Why was JS involved with peep stones and treasure hunting (even being convicted of fraud for this) well after his 1820 first vision and after his visitation by the angel Moroni in 1823? Is this any way for a true prophet of God to carry on?
8) Why did so many of JS's prophecies not come to pass? ( http://home.teleport.com/~packham/prophet.htm )
9) Why is there so much contradiction between the Mormons own scriptures? ( http://utlm.org/onlineresources/contra.htm )
10) Why does the Mormon Church teach only a very "faith promoting history" of the Church origins and leave out volumes of verifiable facts that are not so faith promoting but true?
That is my list but I am sure many of you have many different things that you would include instead of what I have. Tell us what you think.
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| Apostacy Recipe
| | Posted Jul 18, 2005, at 08:15 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| Recipe for Apostacy:
2 cups critical thinking skills
1 cup spiritual experiences or tbm experiences
1/2 cup skepticism
1/4 cup Mormon Enigma, Palmer's Origins, or similar activating ingredient such as exmormon.org, etc
2 Tablespoons WTF moments with tbms
1 cup cognitive dissonance, for topping
Combine first five ingredients in a large blender. Agitate gently until doubt begins to form around the edges. Pour mixture into a medium size casserole dish, and sprinkle the cognitive dissonance liberally. Bake in a well tempered intellect until the cognitive dissonance has melted and is bubbling golden brown. Baking times may vary.
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| God Wants No Searching For Garrett On Sunday
| | Posted Jul 18, 2005, at 08:12 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| Many of you remember the tragic story of Garrett Bardsley, the young LDS Boy Scout lost in the Uinta Mountains a year ago and never found. The family is organizing a last ditch search to find his remains and provide closure. The search originally was planned to overlap with Sunday, but it sounds as if the LDS Church leaders put the kibosh on that:
"The family's bishop and church leaders offered counsel saying that since the Lord's help was vital to their efforts, they should not search on Sunday as had been previously planned. Summit County Search and Rescue was 'unbelievably accepting' of the change to a Thursday-Saturday search, Kevin said."
See link here for full article:
http://newsnet.byu.edu/story.cfm/56066
Maybe it's just cynical me, but can't the Church give up its pharisaic ways just this once, when a family is trying to find their son to bury. This kind of crap pisses me off so much!
Ok, end of rant ....
Click Here For Original Link Or Thread.
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| The Moral And Legal Standard For Honesty: Does The Morg Pass It?
| | Posted Jul 14, 2005, at 09:18 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| You may be aware that Bernard Ebbers, the former CEO of World Com was convicted of accounting fraud and sentenced to 25 years in prison. Under his direction, World Com cooked the books to the tune of billions of dollars, which mislead investors to think that the company was in better financial condition that it was.
In handing down the sentence, the judge said, "Mr. Ebbers statements deprived investors of their money. They might have made different decisions had they known the truth."
How many of us, how many others, would have made different decisions about dedicating our lives to Mormonism and giving 10% of our incomes to it had we known the truth? If the COB had been open and honest about its history and about its doctrines, how many of us would have stood in the temple and sworn oath to "suffer out lives to be taken" or to sacrifice all we have for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
As I see it, according to the standard expressed by this judge, Mormon leaders are complicite in a fraud on a scale similar to Ebbers. Through their dishonest manipulation of history, through lies of both commission and ommission, they have induced millions of people to invest their money, indeed their very lives, in perpetuating the fraudulent organization they lead.
I wonder, when the faithful gather in the great and spacious building to kiss the wizened ass of birthday boy Wrinkley, will any of them reflect on the fact that what Wrinkley is doing is little different in intent and outcome than what Ebbers did?
I cannot express my feelings of bitterness that I wasted four decades of my life in this fucking cult. A victim of deceit and manipulation.
And the sheep wonder why we can't "just leave it alone."
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| Another Path to Awakening
| | Posted Jul 13, 2005, at 08:20 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| I posted a little while ago about my older sister, who has been making some excellent strides toward detachment from the church. I recently had another chat with her, and she explained more about her on-going awakening. A lot of it has to do with a psychological technique called "cognitive therapy." The basic premise is that you can manage the way you feel by understanding and controlling your thought processes. It helps you learn to identify and if necessary, correct any irrational thought patterns. It can be useful in treating anxiety, depression, anger, shame, and guilt--often without the need for prescription drugs.
An example might be:
1. Identify a specific moment when you felt a negative emotion. Example: I felt guilty on Sunday after I left church early.
2. Identify the thoughts you were having at that time. Example: I shouldn't be skipping church. My leaders will disapprove of me. I'm not fulfilling my obligations/covenants. I'm a failure and God doesn't love me.
3. Analyze the "hot thought," i.e., the one that seems to be most responsible for the negative feeling. These are often automatic reactions, not necessarily grounded in reality. Ask yourself questions such as, Is there evidence that would contradict this conclusion? What's the worst that could happen if this is true? Is this always true in all cases? What would I tell my best friend if she were having the same thought?
4. Consider the evidence both for and against your thought. Does it still seem warranted? Are you blaming yourself for things over which you have no control? Does your mood change when you put your thoughts into perspective and consider all the available evidence?
That's the basic idea, anyway. I have never tried it myself, at least not in a formal way, but my sister says it's working wonders for her. Like many LDS women, she has struggled for years (especially since YW, surprise surprise) with feelings of guilt, inadequacy, and depression. Eventually she wound up taking anti-depressants, but she never felt like she was suffering from the kind of depression that results from chemical imbalance. She was generally happy with her life, but every once in a while she'd feel overwhelmed with the demands placed upon her, perceived expectations of others, guilt, etc. She never knew exactly what was driving those negative perceptions. Unconsciously, I think she suspected the church was playing a role, but that's one of those things you usually just don't admit outright. After all, the church teaches the plan of happiness; if you're not happy, you must not be following the plan, ergo, the blame is entirely yours.
With cognitive therapy, she's learned to approach her feelings and thoughts rationally and take control of her moods. It has empowered her, given her more confidence, and helped her realize that the teachings of the church are behind much of her negative thinking. She also has that flaw most fatal to Mormonism--thinking too much. Apparently it runs in the family. The interesting thing is, she probably knows little to nothing about the faith-demoting history of the church. As far as I know, she's never read a single anti-Mormon book, and probably not even many church-approved books. Church history hasn't been a big factor in my or my siblings' awakening. Maybe we were raised with a more honest view than most Mormons. The main factor for each of us seems to be the desire to think, to bring our worldview in line with the world we observe and experience, to be free of irrational and magical thinking. Anything that smacks of manipulation, coercion, spiritual abuse, parochialism, muddled thinking, mental compartmentalization and so on, is a like having a pebble in your shoe. You're just never quite comfortable until you get rid of it, let the wound heal, and make the determination to walk properly from here on out.
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| The Infallibility Of The Prophet
| | Posted Jun 27, 2005, at 11:54 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| As Gordon Hinckley has recently re-emphasized the infallibility of the prophet it might be useful to explore that concept in theology and practice (citation welcome). I find it especially enlightening if one compares Mormon and Catholic practice. The pope claims to be infallible. However, there are clear procedural requirements that a papal statement has to meet to qualifiy as infallible. The pope has to to speak from St. Peter's throne ex cathedra. Hence there can be no doubt which statements claim to be infallible. Below ex cathedra proclamations the pope can elevate statements by including them in an encycleca.
Mormon leaders, OTOH, do not clearly identify the theological validity of their statements. The membership is left in limbo whether a particular statement is prophetic or of personal opinon. Thus the Morg can demand extensive obedience about trivial matters. Should a statement be discredited, it can always be denied as personal opinion. Hence Morg authorities yield extraordinary power while minimizing their personal accountability and that of their institution.
What are your thoughts? Do you have any examples of such statements?
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| Free Thinking Is Just Thinking!
| | Posted Jun 26, 2005, at 09:45 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| Below you will find an item written by Robert Green Ingersoll. ( 1833- 1899) One of the great free thinkers of the 19th century. He is one of my personal heroes.
As Joseph Smith was building an irrational institution, in a rational enviroment, Ingersoll was coming of age.
He makes so much sense to me. Pushing back the walls of ignorance and intolerance , with wisdom, rationality, and just plain old common sense!!
All below, I think, can be applied to the BofM also!!
We are told to investigate the Bible for ourselves, and at the
same time informed that if we come to the conclusion that it is not
the inspired word of God, we will most assuredly be damned. Under
such circumstances, if we believe this, investigation is
impossible. Whoever is held responsible for his conclusions cannot
weigh the evidence with impartial scales. Fear stands at the
balance, and gives to falsehood the weight of its trembling hand
I oppose the church because she is the enemy of liberty;
because her dogmas are infamous and cruel; because she humiliates
and degrades woman; because she teaches the doctrines of eternal
torment and the natural depravity of man; because she insists upon
the absurd, the impossible, and the senseless; because she resorts
to falsehood and slander; because she is arrogant and revengeful;
because she allows men to sin on a credit; because she discourages
self-reliance, and laughs at good works; because she believes in
vicarious virtue and vicarious vice -- vicarious punishment and
vicarious reward; because she regards repentance of more importance
than restitution, and because she sacrifices the world we have to
one we know not of.
The free and generous, the tender and affectionate, will
understand me. Those who have escaped from the grated cells of a
creed will appreciate my motives. The sad and suffering wives, the
trembling and loving children will thank me: This is enough.
Robert G. Ingersoll.
Washington, D.C.
April 13, 1878.
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| According To TBM Family, Our Post-mormon Happy Family Is Now In Satan's Grasp
| | Posted Jun 11, 2005, at 09:05 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| Has anybody in your extended TBM family ever thought this about you? Ever since we left the cult of mormonism, my DW's family almost seem uncomfortable in our presence or in our home now.
DW's TBM sister said that her brother felt the presence of the adversary in our home. This was on a Sunday and I guess we all just seemed a little too happy because we were ordering a pizza and watching a movie that night. The kids were running around the house and participating in loud laughter. We even invited her bro to stay over and enjoy the movie and pizza with us. He seemed so uncomfortable, almost as if he had seen the devil himself. How dare we be so happy, shop on Sunday, and watch a movie. Apparently we are supposed to be reverent in our house on Sunday and act like a bunch of straight faced emotionless morgbots. When her brother comes over now, he is sure to have the book of mormon in hand. Is this to protect him from the adversary?
In a letter that somebody in her family sent us, it indicated that we are now under the influence of satan and his power. Because in their eyes, it is not possible to be happy outside of the church. I think it give them some sort of brain cramp or something when they realize that things are actually going better for us since leaving. How can we possibly be receiving blessings since we no longer believe in the lords "true church"? Well, this just can't happen. We might be happy now, but it WILL NOT LAST!! According to the letter, we will certainly be DESTROYED.
You know the longer I have been out of the church, the more crazy all of this sounds. It really is a wacky cult and I am sure glad I got me and my family out of it.
Does anybody have any similar interactions with their TBM family?
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Editor Note: I am very careful about the posts that I place here on the Mormon Curtain. I never post anything that is of a personal nature and I do my absolute best to protect those who are seeking anonymity in their recovery process. This post does not contain any personal information but I felt it very relevant. Mormons cannot fathom that we could be happy now that we are on the outside of the church.
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| When Do You Tell The Children?
| | Posted Jun 9, 2005, at 10:04 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| This is in response to my earlier thread about the temple open house as well as in response to this most excellent statement by Mr. Wright.
"I'm not telling him that the LDS church is a complete and provable fraud. I'm not encouraging him to choose my church instead. I'm aiding and abetting his indoctrination into a cult and it's making me feel sick. Why? Because if I don't, it could cost him his parents' marriage and I feel that is the greater of the evils so I'm choosing the lesser."
I can totally relate to this Mr. Wright. Like every Sunday I fix my girl's hair, help them put on dresses, and often put my 3 year old in the car while she is crying "I don't want to go to chooch". Other things that make me sick: observing my son get baptized last summer, hearing my little girls sing indoctrination songs when they get home from church. I especially cringe when I hear them sing things like "I belong to the COJCOLDS" or last Sunday the 5 year old was singing "My life is a gift, my life has a plan..." Luckily we have a CD player near the kitchen that has such non-churchy stuff like The Wiggles, Raffi, and other assorted kiddy songs. This helps re-direct the singing.
But I do have those sad frustrated feelings when I realize that I am not just allowing things to happen but I am actually in some cases making things easier. But I, like you have a marriage to think about and my dh is about as devout as they come. His position is, we started in the LDS church and that is where they are going to stay. To fight this out would be very detrimental to the children.
SO.......... then my question is: when do I tell the children I think it is all bogus? My oldest is 8 and he wants to please his dad and so is very compliant with church stuff. Then I have a 5 and a 3 year old.
I suppose I see it somewhat like teaching your children about sex: tell them what is age appropriate. But what is age appropriate to tell an 8 year old about the temple. I'm sure if I told him they taught you secret handshakes and wore funny robes he'd probably envision some 'star wars' type situation and think that's cool. He so wouldn't get it.
What kind of things have you told your younger children that haven't turned them off to listening to you about any church stuff? I worry that if I say too much, their defenses will go up and they'll not listen to much of what I say. Hope that makes sense.
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| Psychology: Healthy Teens And Mormon Teens
| | Posted Jun 9, 2005, at 09:52 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| | This was prompted by Ghost of Capt Jack's response to Phouch's thread. I was curious to see what families and institutions SHOULD do to foster mental health, and see how the church compares. Quotations are from "How Family and Peer Relationships Promote Social Competence" at the bottom of workshopdescriptionandsummary2001.pdf. Numbers, and of course comments, are my own. Please note that my experience is of growing up as the only Mormon in School.
1. "If a young child is having social difficulties in kindergarten and first grade, he or she is more likely to have difficulties later on."
The church is interesting at the very start: like a drug, it gave me short term advantages at great long term cost. I felt confident in having all the answers. I raced headlong down a social blind alley. At first my (nonMo) peers admired my enthusiasm and confidence. Eventually, as I got further and further away, they looked on me as an alien.
The church taught me that I was different. Superior, but different. It taught me that many normal childhood practices (swearing, experimenting) are morally wrong. My duty went beyond simply learning. Even as a young child I knew stuff that was MORE IMPORTANT than anything school and peers can teach. I was expected to be the missionary - the teacher! Unsurprisingly, I found it difficult to fit in.
Of course, if a Mormon kid fails to embrace the message one hundred percent, it just makes her feel guilty, more awkward, and more shy.
2. "When fathers or mothers are warm, responsive, structuring, and limit setting, and encourage a developmentally appropriate level of autonomy, their children are more likely to see themselves as socially competent, and their teachers and classmates see them that way too."
The church does reasonably well at telling people to be warm, responsive, structured and limit setting. But the centralized structure means "warm" and "responsive" are shallow or empty words. Where the church fails big time is on giving autonomy. Remember: the first rule of heaven is obedience.
3. "Those who are able to resolve their disagreements and arguments without (a) going into a "deep freeze" or (b) escalating their conflict out of control, are more likely to have children who are socially competent."
The church fails here. Faith and "endure to the end" mean "deep freeze" - when your (church approved) behavior leads to problems, just be patient.
"Escalating the conflict" - in the church, every problem has the most dire eternal consequences. Even in this life, missing church leads to a broken family, pornography leads to child abuse, alcohol leads to death in the gutter.
This is an area that constantly bothers me. Like many here, I am married to a TBM. Discussing the church leads to escalation. So I choose silence instead. Neither approach is healthy. I think our compromise is better than the alternatives, but I don't like it.
4. "Relationship patterns tend to be repeated across the generations. For those in families doing well, this is good news. For those in families with a history of relationship difficulties, breaking the intergenerational cycle may require special effort."
How true. The church relies on its fourth and sixth generation bots. Breaking free is extremely hard, but we must do it for our children.
5. "Rejection by peers in kindergarten and first grade seems to have long-lasting effects."
See first point. All together now, let's sing the primary song "I want to be a missionary now..."
6. "To institute change, teachers need to feel empowered, and to be treated as professionals."
In the Mormon world, the ideas of men are ALWAYS, by definition, second rate. Evolution, comparative religion and sex education are just the most obvious examples. And this extends even to Mormon leaders. If your seminary teacher is too liberal you can use The Spirit(TM) and QuotesFromChurchLeaders to reject his false teachings. Church education is like Mao's cultural revolution. Officially, the passionate young people know more than the experienced educators.
7. "It is possible to identify troubled families early on, even based on brief systematic observation."
This is where the church is most insidious. Good Mormon kids actually do BETTER in their early years. I don't remember the research (it was reported in Sunstone) but Mormon culture is gives kids extra confidence. After all, it was designed for kids. So, by the usual outward measures, young Mormon kids are relatively healthy. But like any drug, this early boost comes at a high long-term cost. Mormon kids quickly reach a certain stage of maturity, but seldom move beyond it. And by then, when the problems become apparent, it is much harder to do anything about it.
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| What Is It With Veneration Of The Mormon Elite?
| | Posted Jun 9, 2005, at 08:38 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| Ok, my roomate was just explaining (quite nonchalantly) about how David Bednar and Boyd Packer may dop by his sister's wedding reception, and he was going on for maybe 5 minutes about the "proper" way to greet these clowns. The way he was carrying on, you'd think he was preparing to meet the Queen Mother. Or, maybe the metaphor would be more appropriately served by invoking images of my sister and the current "homme du jour". He was awash in indecision for quite a while. I had to bite my tongue to keep from blurting out "how about, 'Hello, you fucking Nazi'"...or perhaps "Hi, cocksparkle!"
So, I suffered in silence while shuffling through about a million greetings that would have given the old frauds fatal arrythmias. But seriously, what is up with the "SLC insiders only" shit? These sanctimonious Utahns with their elite Mormon social circles disgust me. I have a somewhat jaded TBM friend who had even heard of what she termed "The Celestial Breeders Club"--this is a network of couples with high connections in the Mormon hierarchy who groom their children from day one for an "in" into the Morg bureaucracy. These people will only allow their children to date and marry others in the ring, and the control seems to be as close to an arranged marriage as is socially acceptable in the US.
Seriously, what gives? These people are NOT royalty!
Click Here For Original Link Or Thread.
Editor Note: This is a good thread. I encourage everyone to take a look into the forums for other responses. Mormon General Authorities are treated like ROYALTY. I never understood this form of "Hero Worship" that goes on.
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| Another Sad Story In The Making
| | Posted Jun 2, 2005, at 10:00 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| In the mail today I got a wedding announcement for a young girl in the ward. Though my dh and I don't know the family very well, they must have just send one to everyone on the ward list. This girl became inactive shortly after HS. In my attending days, I would see her in RS and she looked bored as a rock. She would just sit there staring straight ahead with not an ounce of emotion on her face. I remember feeling sorry for her, having to be among us women who liked to pass around our babies and share kid stories and talk about how we could support the PH. Then I stopped attending church for good, and never heard about this girl until about 3 months ago when someone told me she had just had a baby out of wedlock. From my TBM friend I learned that she had become totally inactive and had obviously done the evil deed at least once with a guy who she described as very homely and not very motivated. At the time of the baby's birth, they were not involved with each other very much, certainly not to the point of discussing marriage.
Apparently in 3 months time, lots of things have changed. She is marrying the guy, in the LDS chapel, with a reception following in the cultural. The announcement I received didn't invite us to the wedding, only the reception, which I assume means that the wedding will be in some sorry place like the RS room. (You know, to avoid the 'real church' wedding feel.)
In any case, the photo they sent with the announcement is the worst part of all. Though they are both smiling and look content enough, she is wearing a cute shirt with one inch straps over the shoulder and I kid you not it looks like she has material underneath the straps that looks like garment cap sleeves. I'm not in the loop enough to know if some lenient bishop/SP allowed her to go thru the temple, but everything I know about the church would say that she hasn't.... but why would she do something so gawd-awful as to wear something like that? If it weren't invading her privacy, I'd post a pic so you could see what I was talking about.
In any case, this whole situation has made me think what a sorry mess this church's 'values' have inflicted on what would otherwise probably be a very productive young girl. I doubt she'd be getting married right now if she didn't have that 'eternal companion' bell ringing in her head all of the time. And I'd be willing to be money she wouldn't be a young mom right now if she had been given other options than preparing to be a mother her whole life. (Her mom is the ultimate SAHM molly mo.)
Anyway, I know this is just a vent to people I know will understand my frustration with seeing yet another young couple's lives together begin in such a guilt-induced environment.
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| The Value Of A Spiritual Witness
| | Posted May 27, 2005, at 10:12 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| A lot of Mormons (and religious believers in general) cite "spiritual knowledge" as the foundation of their belief/testimony. Mine was based on two things. The first was that the LDS lifestyle is a Good Way to LiveTM. I considered family values, Christian morals, and community to be the major "fruits" in support of the church. The second factor was the perceived logic and consistency of the doctrine. I liked being the resident gospel scholar. I made a list the other day of the LDS books I've read, and it was surprisingly long. Everything seemed to "make sense" within the paradigm of Christian theism. If Jesus was the Son of God, then of course he established his one true church. Naturally, only a church established by God has the authority to provide the knowledge and rituals necessary for salvation. There was a clear falling away, and the restoration put everything back together. Every person will have the chance to hear the gospel and be saved. We can live forever as families with God. It all seemed logicalenough, and I probably would have remained in that mode all my life, except...
The undoing of my "intellectual" testimony was the church's constant push toward a spiritual testimony, which is supposed to be the end-all and be-all of spirituality. Only when you've received a witness directly from the Holy Ghost will you have a deep, abiding testimony. It totally backfired in my case. When it seemed obvious that God was never going to answer my prayers and that no special witness was forthcoming, I began to re-examine the intellectual side of the gospel from a more critical viewpoint and the rest is history. Maybe the church is on to something, because it seems very few people apostatize if they honestly feel like at some point God answered their prayers about Joseph Smith, the BoM, or the church. A spiritual witness seems to cover a multitude of sins.
What was the foundation of your testimony? Did you have spiritual witness? If so, how do you explain it now? If you never experienced something like that, do you think a nice fuzzy feeling about the church would have prevented your eventual apostasy?
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| Lessons Learned from China? LDS Corp and Info Ops
| | Posted May 25, 2005, at 11:03 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| It's only a matter of time until the COB realizes the need to integrate their PR with what the military calls "Information Operations."
The Serbs did a pretty darn good job with their info ops in the Kosovo conflict.
And now the Chinese are establishing their own "online propaganda troops."
I've mainly watched as a lurker, the growing army of lockstep Morgbots posting inane, but uber-TBM reviews on Amazon, and the editorial Wiki-war going on over Wikipedia entries for Holy Joe, the BOM, etc.
I know some PR folks in the military, and there's growing realization, probably within Edelman as well, that PR and Info Ops go hand in glove.
The Chinese, in particular, offer some frightening parallels to the Morg. Authoritarian, centralized regime facing a crisis of leadership, and struggling to meet the challenges of the free-market of information.
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Information operations is a term that covers a wide range of territory.
The aspect most applicable to LDS Inc would be Psychological Operations. The one drawback for them is that the cardinal rule for Psy Ops is tell the truth.
In other words, claiming something as true that is demonstrably false isn't good business. For example, if the US claimed Bin Laden was captured and then a video is released with him holding a recent New York Times, any propaganda value of the capture is negated.
LDS Inc has to be very careful with what it decides to use; if it uses something that is true, for example, Mormon help after the recent hurricanes in Florida, that could be to their benefit. If, as they seem to be doing, they decide to talk up Joseph Smith, that could backfire big time.
The problem is that the geriatric leadership is seemingly blind to the fatal flaw in the Joseph Smith story: non-believers who hear it almost unanimously figure out it's BS.
Psy Ops is really at its heart nothing more than PR. Madison Avenue made a fortune during the first Gulf War coming up with Psy Ops campaigns for the military.
Click Here For Original Link Or Thread.
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| The Top Reasons Why Mormonism Is Just Stalinism Without The Power
| | Posted May 2, 2005, at 08:18 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| - It is totalitarian. Before Correlation, it was simply authoritarian, that is, members were expected to obey blindly. But with correlation, it became totalitarian - that is, every activity of the church was specifically directed to support the party. The priesthood directly controls everything, even the women's stuff. Anything not directly supporting the priesthood (roadshows, women's magazines, etc.) is dropped. Even 'the Activity Book' directs every physical activity to a 'Priesthood Purpose.'
- Obsessive centralization, leading to 'one size fits all'
- A desire to kill all enemies (see early temple oaths, Danites, and longing for Jesus to return and cleanse the earth) - thankfully, this falls into the 'without the power' part. Note that, even during the worst of Stalin's purges, the majority of Russians supported him.
- Leader worship, particularly of Josef S.
- Systematic changing of history (monogamous Brigham, re-recording conference talks, etc.) plus obsessive secrecy, distorting of records (e.g. membership), etc.
- Sham elections ("all those opposed" without needing to look around)
- No unofficial opinions are allowed; control of the media (where possible - note the limits of power)
- Paranoia regarding (outside) enemies and (inside) intellectuals
Anyone want to change, or complete the list?
There are various other parallels between Mormonism and communism, so much that McConkie called communism a false religion. Both have the United Order, they call each other 'brother so and so' or 'comrade so and so,' both have glorious new plans every few years which then don't work. Both have grand building pans. Both have a false but official belief in equality (an Elder has the same power as a prophet, but different stewardship). But I don't know if these things are particularly Stalinist as opposed to other ideologies.
The only major difference I can see is that Stalin broke with communist traditions of expansion - he preached 'socialism within one country.' But the Mormon church is still trying to export Mormonism throughout the world. But even here, Mormonism is more Stalinist than Trotskyite. Trotsky wanted revolution, but Stalin focused on total control of the people already within communism. No doubt history buffs can correct me on the details.
Click Here For Original Link Or Thread.
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| Why Is The Church Glad To Be Rid Of You?
| | Posted Apr 20, 2005, at 08:08 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| I know they're glad to be rid of me. I was trouble from the get go. I used to behave so badly in Primary that they made me a hall monitor (official calling).
I think they're glad to be rid of a person who believes in evolution, feminism, relativism, and the right to free speech.
I think they're glad to be rid of a person who thinks about and talks about good ways to change the temple ceremony.
I think they're glad to be rid of a person who doesn't kowtow to higher authorities. Once I nearly refused to shake BKPs hand. Shoulda......
They're pleased as punch to be rid of someone who didn't pay a red cent of tithing for the last decade of her membership.
They're happy to be rid of a tea and coffee drinker, and occasional imbiber of spirits, mostly because I thought they were all healthy and I said so.
They're pleased to be rid of a lady who wouldn't wear the middle aged Mormon uniform of lace collars and white pantihose every Sunday, who now would probably never wear a skirt to church again. I hate them!
I'm sure you all can think of better ones than I can.
Click Here For Original Link Or Thread.
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| Is This a Joke?
| | Posted Apr 14, 2005, at 07:56 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| Girls of the Foyer, put down your vacuums, stop massaging your husband's feet, and come out of the kitchen long enough to read this great op-ed piece from the Lord's own newspaper. It seems one student's mother is alarmed enough at the trend of women who actually want degrees and not just wedding rings that she's put pen to paper.
Getting the Most from BYU
Some of the choicer quotes:
"There is nothing more powerful, for a woman, than to build an eternal home. "
"You want to hear what real success is? It's sitting in a temple of the Lord, and seeing your child make eternal covenants with their Father in Heaven."
"Don't let yourself be conned by that evil one who would seek to confuse you and your priorities about putting off becoming wives and mothers."
"Let your education continue throughout your lifetime, but use it to teach your children."
And finally the kicker of all kickers:
"Go ahead and find that wonderful guy, and when you do, get your MRS Degree and live happily ever after!"
Stormin Mormon Click Here For Original Link Or Thread.
So remember if you are a Mormon female, your place is in the home as a baby-factory obeying the male Priesthood. You do not need a degree nor any education. Your job is to stay home, make babies and obey.
Mormonism: PAY... PRAY... OBEY.
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| Is "true" Mormon History Really Accessible To Members?
| | Posted Mar 10, 2005, at 08:48 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: ZARAHEMLA CITY LIMITS | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
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| I was reading over on RfM the synopsis of the Van Hale show with our nemisis Daniel Peterson. If the synopsis is accuracte, Danny boy sniffed at the suggestion that more troublesome aspects of Mormon history are not accessible to members. He claimed that one can find such informatin in a slew of resources, including principally books written by LDS historians.
Now, it strikes me that this statement is very, very North American centric. The people who read such books are probably mostly in N. America, and probably predominantly in the inner-mountain West. And, they usually include people who are already interested in such information and thus more likely to seek it out anyway.
I wonder if Danny boy ever considered how someone living in the Bolivian Altiplano is going to get and read a book written by the LDS historians Danny boy loves so much. What about all the new members in Ghana? Are these books published in Russian yet? Are they translated into Korean, Japanese, German, etc. You get the idea.
I find his claim that such information is accessible to the rank and file to be absolutely ludicrous. The vast, vast majority of members know only what is spoon fed them by the correlation committee. They now absolutely nothing about the multiple versions first vision, JS's polygamy, the events and reasons leading up to JS's murder, the wacky teachings by early prophets and apostles, nothing about blood atonement, Adam God, nothing about polyandry. They know what the missionaries teach them, what's in the Ensign, Friend, New Era, and lesson manuals, and that's about it.
Peterson lives in a fantasy world where everybody shares his interests and his passions for the minutae of Mormon hisotry and doctrine. He, like other apologists, refuse to concede that they are unique among membership, the elite of the elite, if you will.
His view is so warped , his head so high up in the clouds, that he is incapable of seeing the church from the level of the rank & file, and particularly the rank & file in the developing world, most of whom will never even have the chance to read any of this stuff in their native language, assuming they can read at all.
Just who the hell is he fooling, other than himself and his acolytes?
Credits: Guy Sajer Click Here For Original Link Or Thread.
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