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     · Blogging the Ex-Mormon And Mormon World - by Infymus.
     · News, Recovery, Information, Humor & More.

      · Containing 1442 Articles Spanning 116 Topics - Online since January 1, 2005


           

    PLEASE NOTE: If you have reached this page from an outside source such as an Internet Search or forum referral, please note that this page (the one you just landed on) is an archive containing articles on "POST MORMON COMMUNITY". This website, The Mormon Curtain - is a website that blogs the Ex-Mormon world. You can read The Mormon Curtain FAQ to understand the purpose of this website.

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    POST MORMON COMMUNITY
    Total Topics: 5

     
    Post-Mormons are members of a rapidly growing community of former Mormons who have voluntarily left Mormonism. We choose to no longer base our lives, and the lives of our children, on so-called truths dictated by others. We believe that truth is freely available to any honest, diligent seeker regardless of creed, age, race or sexual orientation.
     

    Click here for all articles published under this topic.
    One Of The Talks On Child Abuse
    Posted Dec 5, 2005, at 08:34 AM [MST].
    FILED UNDER: POST MORMON COMMUNITY
    ORIGINAL AUTHOR: Lunaverse
    ARCHIVED BY: Infymus

    TOP
    So I've been analyzing the general conference talks on "child abuse", you know.. those 30 or so the Church claims they've given since 1976.

    My initial assessment was that these were mostly a collection of talks on other topics, where child abuse was briefly mentioned. I'm about half-way through now, and it seems I was correct.

    I just came across a talk that actually *is* about child abuse (mostly...), and the message is a great example of why the Church is enabling it to continue, while still being able to claim they "condemn" it.

    The talk itself is by Boyd K Packer, "Little Children ", and can be found at that link.

    Here's what I've written:

    The talk begins by listing four great modern trends in sin that affect children, in this order: Sex between adults is now acceptable, perverted sexual acts are now promoted, abortion is legal, and children are abused physically, mentally, and morally.

    Even if order does not indicate importance, Packer seems to be placing child abuse on equal footing with responsible consensual extra-marital sex, in the degree to which these things harm children. All of these items are expounded upon further in the talk.

    This is one of the rare times when a General Authority makes an honest effort at addressing victims and perpetrators, in an attempt to offer healing to both.

    Unfortunately, the answer is more of the same... To the abusers, he admonishes them to repent. To the victims, he asks them to... repent. And forgive.

    He does not recommend therapy. He does not recommend self-help books. He does not recommend a program of self-esteem improvement, or address the difficulties that arise from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder or other deeply-seated psychological problems. He does not suggest that modern science may have an answer for complicated situations.

    In fact, he expressly speaks against it! In one place, he addresses secular "doctrines", blaming them for the moral decline that is leading to child abuse (and the other sins).

    He also says:
    "The study of the doctrines of the gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. Preoccupation with unworthy behavior can lead to unworthy behavior. That is why we stress so forcefully the study of the doctrines of the gospel."
    So here we have one of the few talks that is actually about child abuse, and the official word from on high is that the scriptures know more about the human mind than modern psychology.

    This is does not merely have a neutral effect. Abuse victims who heard this talk were specifically harmed, because these words kept them trapped in the same cycle they've always been in. Abusers who heard this talk went on abusing, because repentance and the Gospel isn't enough to teach people how their minds and emotions work, and how to overcome their difficult problems.

    Packer wants to simplify these problems into a neat little package that can be cured by the love of Christ. He seems to believe the human mind is a neatly-functioning little machine, and that all it needs is the correct doctrine to oil it right up. The root of the problem lies in listening to worldly authorities, and if only people would listen to Church leaders, the mechanisms of the mind would jump right back into working order.

    Packer wants to use the magic wand of religion to cure one of the most serious diseases within Mormonism. And that wand, not secular knowledge, keeps enabling the disease to spread.

    Here is the exact wording of the advice he gives:

    Quote:
    "To you adults who repeat the pattern of neglect and abuse you endured as little children, believing that you are entrapped in a cycle of behavior from which there is no escape, I say:

    It is contrary to the order of heaven for any soul to be locked into compulsive, immoral behavior with no way out!

    It is consistent with the workings of the adversary to deceive you into believing that you are.

    I gratefully acknowledge that transgressions, even those which affect little children, yield to sincere repentance. I testify with all my soul that the doctrine of repentance is true and has a miraculous, liberating effect upon behavior.

    To you innocent ones who have not transgressed, but were abused as little children and still carry an undeserved burden of guilt, I say:

    Learn true doctrine—repentance and forgiveness; lay that burden of guilt down!

    For we are all children of the same Heavenly Father. May not each of His children, of any age, claim the redeeming sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and in so doing, through complete repentance, be cleansed and renewed to childlike innocence?"
    I say, "No". It didn't work for me, and it isn't likely to help most other people, either.
     
    Click here for all articles published under this topic.
    The Lord Acknowledges Oliver's Divineing Abilities
    Posted Oct 27, 2005, at 10:50 AM [MST].
    FILED UNDER: POST MORMON COMMUNITY
    ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a
    ARCHIVED BY: Infymus

    TOP
    In the original Book of Commandments of 1833 we find this revelation given through Joseph Smith to Oliver Cowdery:

    " you shall receive a knowledge of whatsoever things you ask in faith, with an honest heart...Remember this is your gift. Now this is not all, for you have another gift which is the gift of working with the rod: behold it has told you many things:behold there is no other power save God, that can cause this rod of nature, to work in your hands, for it is the work of God;and therefore whatsoever you shall ask me to tell you by that means, that will I grant unto you, that you shall know."

    In the subsequent version called The Doctrine and Covenants published in 1835 the Lord seems to have wanted a different rendition. It is as follows:

    " Now this is not all your gift, for you have another gift, which is the gift of Aaron: behold it has told you many things; behold there is no other power save the power of God that can cause the gift of Aaron to be with you; therefore doubt not, for it is the gift of God, and you shall hold it in your hands, and do marvelous works; and no power shall be able to take it away out of your hands ,for it is the work of God"

    The rod reffered to above is a divining rod used to find buried treasure.

    When people talk about mormon culture being rich etc. I blanch a bit. This just seems like silly treasure hunting turned religion to me. I think JS and Oliver were, as Van Wagoner calls them " Pious Frauds" .

    Now for a little fun. Here is something that a treasure digger should never have to ask:

    Where is my rod? I mean, if you have the gift of Aaron why do you need to ask. Just feel for it.

    http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/sh...
     
    Click here for all articles published under this topic.
    Stages Of Cult Recovery From "Recovery From Cults"
    Posted Oct 11, 2005, at 07:33 AM [MST].
    FILED UNDER: POST MORMON COMMUNITY
    ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a
    ARCHIVED BY: Infymus

    TOP
    Ok, I know we have the other Stages thread, but it seems to have reached some level summary (albeit evolving).

    So I'm not too sure where this post belongs. It is regarding the Stages of Cult Recovery, as listed by Paul R. Martin of the Wellspring Retreat. I thought I'd sum up his summations of the generic cult exit experience. If the admins deem it appropriate, please merge with the other thread.

    The scope of this list of stages is a little different. The Post-Mormon paradigm starts with the pre-exit stage. This begins after exit. Parts of it correspond to the Post-Mormon Stages, but it probes more deeply into some of them, and takes several side tracks.

    It is taken from Recovery from Cults, specifically Chapter 10, Post-Cult Recovery: Assessment and Rehabilitation. I have quoted from this chapter before.. For the most part, it's excellent.

    Stage 1: Developing a Conceptual Framework

    "The focus of stage one is education and self-acceptance".

    The Possible Need for Exit Counseling

    Most of us are "exit counseling ourselves". We're delving into Mormonism's hidden side, seeking to understand how we were deceived, expressing repressed feelings in a sympathetic community, researching Church History, and trying to make sense of it all.

    Recognizing the Importance of Relationships

    Many people enter cults for social reasons. It is important that when exiting, the ex-cultist find understanding and acceptance. This is often difficult for Mormons especially in the corridor. Many of us have lost all of our friends and family members, or at the very least, we will not find any support there.

    Evaluating the Group

    I believe this is the stage I'm most occupied with at the moment. Ex-members must make a "sound intellectual and theological (or philosophical) evaluation of the group's teachings", and also take a second look at the group's ethics, "for example, its use of money, its methods of thought reform, and its practice of deception". This is a time for the individual to re-evaluate themselves in the context of what they discover about the cult. This is something of a moral separation, of understanding that one's actions within the group were probably of honest intent, and coming to terms with the deceptions.

    Recovery of Fellowship and Recognition of Group Processes

    The ex-member will seek to join fellowship with others, possibly another group. Issues include problems with trusting other individuals and organizations, or jumping right in to another controlling group. Ex-members may seek that social euphoria of their former group, or turn completely away from intimacy with all people.

    The Recognition of "Floating"

    Floating has been a difficult term for me to understand. Dr. Martin uses the best description I've found so far, however I think this may mean something slightly different to everyone who has written about it.

    "When an ex-cultist gets back into the high after leaving a cult, it is called 'floating'. If he snaps back into the shame-based motivations experienced in the cult and again believes the cult was right, that too is called floating."

    I've also heard it described in the context of triggers and dissociation. People from meditation cults will often snap back into uncontrollable trance states.

    I believe I've experienced what Dr. Martin describes, but it's difficult for me to wrap my mind around. This involves something that is so intrinsically a part of "who I am", that it's hard to put into a test tube. I can only get a vague sense of what this means, but I believe ex-Mormons do experience this. I've gotten this sense from reading the posts of others as well, especially those who are still frequently around Mormons.

    Understanding Trauma

    This step involves recognizing abuse and the long-term effects. Mormons seem to have a wide range of emotional, spiritual, physical, and sexual abuse. Some lived in highly dysfunctional abusive families, and the Church reinforced and doctrines provided justification. For others, their families were relatively functional, and the doctrines were slightly more flexible and open. Then there are those of us somewhere in between. Abuses caused by extended relatives, clergy, also cannot be ignored.

    In any case, Mormon doctrine is designed to be taken seriously, and some of it is quite a mind f*ck. Whatever level of trauma experienced, this is the phase of reconciliation to it.

    Thought Reform

    Martin insists that for a proper recovery, the ex-cultist must have a good understanding of how they were manipulated. This is why I'm so driven to do all this reading and writing. The cult causes alienation from the authentic self, so understanding how it was done will help one find their own lost soul.

    The Church had the answers to everything, walled us off from the rest of the world, made the doctrine more important than our self, "broadly define[d] sin and narrowly define[d] human nature", loaded our language to trap us in the "doctrine over self" paradigm, demanded purity, inflicted shame because we could not ever be truly pure, and this increased our dependency... Our only alternative, as repeated time and time again, was certain destruction.

    At the end of stage one, Martin summarizes with what I've quoted here before -- that the joy and rage (and other emotions) must be allowed to run their courses.

    Stage Two: Grieving, Reconciliation, and Reaching Out

    At this stage, the ex-cultist may experience the following issues: grief for friends and family still in the group, denial ("I can't believe this happened to me"), regret for lost time, worries about finding a new spiritual path, uncertainty about God, and guilt/shame for having been converted in the first place.

    Regaining Purpose

    During this phase, the ex-cultist will be searching for meaning in a now-uncertain world. The ex-cultist will need support and affirmation. This is a time for talking about their trauma and finding self-esteem and self-forgiveness. The compass has stopped spinning wildly, and now it's time to take a look at where it is pointing.

    The Need for Reconciliation

    Many ex-cultists feel guilty for unethical actions they made while in the cult. This is probably more of an issue for those who served a mission or were called to high leadership positions. If you feel you have wronged someone, now is the time to make amends, if possible. It's also important to not condemn your old self based your current light.

    The Request for Information

    This has more to do with doctrinal questions. Trying to understand former beliefs, and putting them into a context of your newly developing beliefs.

    The Need for Support

    That's why we're here in this forum. Martin says, "...finding and talking with other former members ... is an essential step to recovery... Their experience is similar to that of 'war buddies'".

    Rediscovery of the Gospel

    Ok, so this is where Martin and I part ways. He gets a little preachy here. Later he emphasizes that at Wellspring, they only get Biblical and Christiany if people expressly want it.

    I'm going to change his focus a little, and call this phase "Seeking True Spirituality", whatever its form may be for the individual.

    Rescuing Others

    During this stage, ex-members may desire to help pull others out of the organization. If it helps, do it. But be aware that attempting this without much education or planning may backfire. Don't forget, cognitive dissonance is alive and well.

    Contact by the Cult

    Yep, Mormons aren't the only ones that get bugged and harassed. According to Martin, the first attempts will be in the interests of bringing the ex-cultist back. If those don't work, "they will try to discredit the former member and limit any contact he or she may have with the cult."

    Sound familiar?

    How about this? "Their tack is to say things like, 'We miss you,' 'We love you,' 'We have been so worried about you,' 'We have been praying for you,' 'We would like to be with you.'" This is right out of the book.

    Martin advises caution in this area. Mormons are probably relatively safe physically -- they won't try to kidnap you like some cults will. However, I would also advise caution -- I continued to trust my parents, and they pulled a few things I never would have suspected of them. They left me an emotional mess (I still have nightmares, and this happened several years ago). I had to "divorce" them and set extremely firm boundaries -- of the "don't come back or I will call the police" sort. Please don't underestimate how strong their beliefs are -- Mormon doctrines (eternal family, the plan of salvation, Satan is actively tempting people, it's better to die that lose your chastity, etc) are held above the concept of individual rights and personal comfort.

    Retributions of the Cult

    This addresses the threat of physical violence from the cult. This one is probably not a worry in modern mainstream Mormonism. It definitely once was, and still is for Fundamentalists.

    Reemergence of the Past

    This covers dealing with psychological and emotional issues one may have had prior to joining the cult. Most members are born into the Church, so I'd also add issues not directly related to Mormonism, whether caused by nurture or nature.

    Previous experiences must be re-evaluated with your new, non-cult mind. This includes abuse issues, addictions, loneliness, unresolved grief, relationship problems, etc. The Bandaid of resolution-through-faith has been ripped off, so now old wounds can be viewed from a secular concept of modern psychology. Science hasn't gotten it all figured out yet, but it's a lot more likely to be of help than advice like, "Pray and read the scriptures", "It will all work out in the end", "Remember Heavenly Father loves you", "You're a child of God", and "Quit dwelling on the negative and just get over it!"

    All aspects of Stage Two may bring old issues to light that were never properly dealt with. This may add to the emotional turmoil, confusion, and uncertainty.

    Stage Three: Reintegration into Society

    "When the former cult member begins talking less and less about the cult and spending more time in career, relationship, and personal issues, then he or she is in the third stage of recovery."

    One thing I would like to point out here, is that sometimes there is a negative connotation to "dwelling in the past" or focusing on the negative. I just found myself feeling a little guilty for writing this very post, thinking, "Geez, I'm still stuck in stages one and two, what's wrong with me?" This attitude will get me nowhere. I have decided to spend as much time as I like right where I am. If I'm interested, there must be a reason why -- in fact, there doesn't even need to be a reason.

    And if I become disinterested, and five years from now, come back to it, so be it. I will forgive myself, and let myself do what needs to be done. There is no shame in it.

    Positives of the Cult Experience

    As part of the process, we can look at the positive things we learned and experienced because of Mormonism. While some of these traits are out of whack and need some calibration, I learned determination, honesty, restraint, moderation, politeness, kindness, hard work, and how to play the piano.

    What did you learn?

    Recovery of the Whole Self

    Martin makes reference to finding the pre-cult self, which is frustrating to me. I never had a pre-cult self. I've had to rephrase these types of references to "authentic self". Finding this has been difficult, but I know I've tapped in during those moments when I feel joy in doing something that is uniquely me.

    The Self and Religious Commitment

    Martin gets preachy again. Something about the difference between performance-based doctrines and Jesus-forgives-all doctrines.

    Recovery of the Practical

    Mormons are already practical. We're encouraged to be self-sufficient when it comes to financial, shelter, and food needs, so many of the problems facing some other ex-cultists in this regard will probably not be an issue for ex-Mormons.

    Recognition of Sexuality and Intimate Relations

    Mormonism isn't the only one with weird dating rules and strict laws about sex.

    During this phase, some ex-cultists go overboard. On RfM I've seen this referred to as the "Adolescent Phase".

    Longing for Friends in the Cult

    Martin recommends balance, and making sure this longing isn't misplaced guilt or codepencency.

    Well, that's it. Must sleep now.

    Luna


    http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/sh...
     
    Click here for all articles published under this topic.
    I Am A Member Of A Cult
    Posted Sep 27, 2005, at 12:41 PM [MST].
    FILED UNDER: POST MORMON COMMUNITY
    ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a
    ARCHIVED BY: Infymus

    TOP
    OK, so as some of you know I have been doing a lot of research lately to try and figure why I am so messed up. I was awakened yesterday to the fact that yes, indeed I was raised in a cult. My eyes were opened when I stumbled across the script of the endowment ceremony on the internet. I went through the temple the first time in 1989, visited as much as I could for about two weeks prior to my mission and attended the temple once a week for two months while in the MTC then didn't attend again until after my mission in 1991. I don't ever recall being told that the endowment script changed in 1990 while I was serving the lord on foreign soil. What a shock. I forgot everything about the penalties that were part of the ceremony when I first went through; I mean I totally blocked it out like I never took on the oaths with the penalties. I mean slitting your throat, slicing your chests, cutting open you gut. This is just sick, sick, sick.

    And the tough part is that I know what I read on the internet is true. When I was reading, those memories of my first temple visits came flooding back to me. Yap that was me at 19 vowing in front of god to have my throat sliced if I spoke about temple secrets.

    In primary, I was one of 2-3 children in our ward to be selected to sing during a Saturday session of General Conference. It was very exciting because we had the privilege of singing two new primary songs that no one had heard yet, but would be in the new primary song book that was getting ready to be published. One of these songs was "I love to see the Temple", the words, as I recall them are: "I love to see the temple; I am going there someday, to feel the Holy Spirit to listen and to pray". I think the words need to be re-written to include the part about vowing to have your body mutilated if you talk about the secrets that go on inside or break any of your covenants. Sorry if this offends anyone, but I am just angry and need to vent.

    http://www.postmormon.org/forum_vb/sh...
     
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    The Term "Anti-Mormon"
    Posted Aug 3, 2005, at 08:12 AM [MST].
    FILED UNDER: POST MORMON COMMUNITY
    ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a
    ARCHIVED BY: Infymus

    TOP
    I know this has been hashed out before. But I was reading over on FAIR where some guy wants to define 'anti-mormon'. The resultant discussion was quite interesting.

    Personally, I hate with a passion, the term 'anti-mormon'. If used against me, I would find it insulting and would see it as a defamation of character.

    I wondered why my own feelings are so strong on the subject.

    I think that it is because I personally relate it to the term anti-semite, as well as remembering the great hatred that most members have for people they regard as 'anti-mormon' and the belief they have that these anti's are getting what's due to them (I remember infiltrator being quite a good example of that particular mind-set)

    An 'anti-semite' was someone who, as far as I can tell, hated the Jewish Race as a people. Hitler was focused not on iradicating the Jewish Religion per say, but on exterminating anyone who was a Jew. He made it personal, and he didn't spare women or children.

    I bear no hatred to the mormons as a people, nor do I wish their extermination. I find some of the doctrines and philosophies, some of the cultish techniques reprehensible. But there is a big difference between disliking what the doctrines, history, culture can do to a person (which may be good or bad) and disliking the people themselves to the point of hatred.

    To me a true 'anti-mormon' is an individual who wishes all mormons as people were dead. Not someone who criticised the religion, often for well-founded reasons. Therefore, in no-way would I call Gerald and Sandra Tanner 'anti-mormons'. They don't hate the people. They dislike the falsity that they believe they have found, but they don't wish the extermination of all mormon people. They don't wish them ill.

    I wonder how one would define the LDS members who told me I was going to Satan and hell if I left. To forsee the death not only of my person but also of my spirit is judgement indeed (even if done in love). Could I call them 'anti-anti-mormons'.

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