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The Mormon Truth is an Ex-Mormon blog written by Samuel the Utahnite. From his site, "I was faithful a member of the Mormon Church for over 30 years. I served an honorable two year mission, went to Byu, married in the temple and about 3 months ago I began a journey that led me to the truth about Morminism; that it is a complete lie and total fraud!! I only want to help others to discover what I have found and to see the real truth. As we are taught in the Bible, the truth shall set us free!!"
http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/
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| | Mormon Recovery Board (RFM) Rolls Out The Red Carpet For The Rude And Abusive Steve Benson While Condemning Infymus And The Mormon Curtain!!
| | Posted Nov 22, 2005, at 09:11 AM. | FILED UNDER: MORMON TRUTH
| | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a | | ARCHIVED BY: Infymus | |
 TOP | | The events of the last week or so, regarding RFM, are unbelievable and disgraceful!! The events regarding Steve Benson, go back several months. I deeply regret having to make this post, because of all of the wonderful and nice people that post over on RFM, and that have helped me and taught me so much, but holy hell, give me a break, enough is enough and I have had it. This post is by no means, any reflection on the great people over on RFM that do help many others and teach us all so much. I will be forever indebted to those great people who have taught me so much on RFM, both through posting and personal Emails.
I also want to publicly thank RFM and those awesome people for all of the help and knowledge that they have given me but sadly, I can't take the favoritism and hypocrisy that is currently happening over there right now. I'm sure that Susan and Eric are good people, trying to do a good thing and I thank them for their site and the help that it has given me, but they simply aren't playing fair with their posters. Different rules apply to different people, all depending, I'm guessing, on what your last name is and how famous you are in the Ex-Mo community.
All the rules should apply equally to all the posters but sadly, that is not what is happening. I just counted the posts and in the last 10 days, there are 259 posts that mention Steve Benson and 189 are Steve Benson's posts that he wrote. So, in the last 10 days, he has posted an average of 19 times a day. And Susan and Eric wonder were all their bandwidth is going and why it's so high? I don't think it's too hard to figure out with those numbers. Steve Benson has basically taken over RFM and made it his personal amusement park, apparently with the blessings of Eric and Susan, since they have done nothing to stop it. Unfortunately, it is being done at the expense of some good people that are ridiculed and belittled on a regular basis by Steve Benson, as the moderators just sit and watch.
Now, leaving RFM for me isn't just about Steve Benson but that would be one of my main reasons at this point. His nastiness, rudeness and ego, know no bounds. Also, in addition to Steve Benson, due to the treatment of Infymus from the Mormon Curtain by Susan of RFM, who is the primary administrator over there, I have pulled my support and link to RFM. I will no longer be posting on RFM and have no desire to do so now or ever again. I'm permanently done with RFM!! I guess that makes at least 2 of us that are done with RFM as of this week. Reed Smith, a poster on RFM, also announced, as of yesterday, that he is through. Of course, this happened due to the abuse, mistreatment and overall nastiness of Steve Benson toward him.
Who knows how many people they've lost but it apparently doesn't matter as the Steve Benson show continues on. The problem with Reed Smith was that Steve didn't believe that Reed Smith was an assistant under his Uncle when he was mission President, blah, blah, blah.
If anyone wants to read the posts regarding what happened between those two last week, be my guest, Steve Benson has started yet another nauseating post in regards to the whole thing, since he can never let a subject die, especially if it directly involves him directly. Also, he is given complete and total freedom to do so, without one iota of intervention. If one of us "common posters", not what they obviously consider "Mormon Royalty", did what Steve does, we would have our post deleted almost immediately and then be asked to email Susan. That's what happens when your really naughty on RFM, Susan posts on the top to Email here. It's kind of like having to go confess and then get scolded by your Bishop.
Also, Steve's unwarranted, childish rant toward Tal Bachman, took the cake and turned many posters against him. The whole thing was just ridiculous!! Tal is a respected, funny, very knowledgeable poster, who spoke at the Ex-Mormon Convention and performed some of his music as well. Steve wanted to call Tal out for something, wasn't specific, but again, you can go search for those posts and read them for yourself, unless they are already deleted too. They whole episode was a joke and then Steve Benson tried to play it off as "he was just joking", but long after everyone was giving him hell and Tal was asking him repeatedly to explain what it was that Steve was so upset about. Basically, Steve Benson made a complete ass of himself and was trying to get back the ground that he was losing by the minute and with each post.
In any case, It's time for me to move forward to better places/things and to focus 100% on my blog here and the other things that I'm currently working on. I can probably help more people and in better ways with my blog and other things that I have planned, especially because I don't have to be worried about every word or post of mine possible being censored or stricken from the record. The censorship over on RFM has reached ridiculous levels, unless of course, your name is Steve Benson. Then you can do whatever the hell you want and say anything you want to anybody. You can attack people, cut them down, accuse them falsely, whatever you want, because you are the Great, Holy, Almighty Grandson of the Once Great, Mormon Prophet, Ezra Taft Benson. They should add a new rule to their list, "Nobody can criticize or disagree with Steve Benson." It should be number one on their list of rules and regulations.
Also, If the Administration of RFM is so damn ungrateful for people that are referring their site to others, like The Mormon Curtain, or from their website, posting remarks that are referenced back to RFM, to give them due credit, well, screw them. It's not a competition, or so I thought, but apparently it is. I have no clue why they allowed me to post my blog address on there for as long as they did, but I do sincerely thank them for that. Like I said, I went through my deconversion/deprogramming phase, on RFM, with the help of many people and their great archives on many different topics.
Just being able to vent and express my feelings and get support from most people there, was what I needed and I will always be grateful for that. RFM was instrumental in my recovery process, but with that being said, I have replaced the former link to RFM with a link to Dr. Shades UNCENSORED MORMON DISCUSSION BOARD and also, another place that I highly recommend, is POSTMORMON.ORG. I have also added several other links to some great places that you will all find very useful, especially the Tanner's site and real Mormon History.
After doing some searches on myself and Mormon Truth/Samuel the Utahnite, I realized that a moderator named Helemon, from the Post Mormon site, had posted several of my commentaries from here in Mormon Truth to his site. I greatly appreciate that very much and I'm grateful that he valued my words enough to post them there. Therefore, I wanted to post a link to his site, which is an awesome site as well. I'm very grateful for anyone that finds my words useful and helpful and is willing to share them in other places and forums. My ultimate goal is to help as many people as I can with either leaving the Mormon Church or how to cope with the pain associated with leaving the Mormon Church.
I simply want to share the truth with as many people as possible. Unsympathetic people like Steve Benson, with his cutting words, only make that process harder and set a bad example to the rest of the world of what Ex-Mormons are like. Almost all of the people that I had contact with and saw posting on RFM, seemed to be genuine, great people, that also wanted to help others. Most people are compassionate, caring, willing to help, etc, basically, they are everything that Steve Benson isn't. There is no need to act the way he acts!!
Anyway, since I just mentioned him again, back to Steve Benson for a while. I did a post on him a while back and here is a link to it for those that haven't read it. It's amazing how this self-serving guy is doing nothing but cutting down, insulting people and overall, giving us Ex-Mormons a bad name. The other baffling thing is how Susan and RFM protect this arrogant guy and his actions to the ends of the earth. There were several great posts written a few days ago, saying exactly what people thought of Mr. Benson, mostly negative, and they were erased by Susan very quickly and disappeared. One thread had about 25 comments in it and poof, gone!! Just like that!!
The nice part is though, that I saved them of course, expecting them to be erased. When I read them, I was like, hey, that won't last long!! LOL!! So, thanks to my hard drive, I am going to repost some of these comments here, so that everyone can read them and Susan can't erase them this time. Oh my, I'm sure that will be very disturbing to her, won't it? Anyway, here are the highlights of what I have saved, enjoy!!
Negative posts on Steve Benson, with no links and names removed from some to protect the innocent......LOL.....plus Susan can't say I stole them from RFM, because they don't even exist now since she erased them. I thought some great points were made.....here they are:
Subject: To keep steve happy, lets rename RFM. How about Steve Benson's RFM
Date: Nov 11 03:48
Author: Not a Steve Benson fan anymore, not that he cares of course
Keep in mind that it was steve that attacked Tal. Tal was just doing his thing, writing his posts and then along comes steve benson, who can't handle anybody stealing his thunder. I think he would be happy if he was the only one that ever posted here and everybody just read his short stories or embellished accounts of dramatic events, of which he has perfect recollection of, all these years later. steve, to feed your ego and satisfy your deep desires to share these stories over and over, just write a damn book.
It would be laughable if it wasn't so damn sad. I think steve benson needs professional help. Anyone ever notice how many posts he has going at once. I also find it funny that sometimes he doesn't get many responses right away and the post disappears. I'm not sure if he pulls it or the Admin here pulls it but I'm sure it's steve. He would never want to be embarrassed about having a post in which nobody responded, like the one earlier today about making up with Tal.
Also, God forbid, if anyone every disagrees with this all knowing man. You'd better run for cover because he's coming after you with both guns blazing and insults a flying. What a great guy. Steve wants everyone here to bow down and worship him for his incredible whit and intelligence. No wonder he doesn't believe in a God, in his mind, he is God, so how could there be another one.
I used to enjoy your posts steve but this latest fiasco, attacking Tal for unknown reasons, but of course steve said that Tal knew, but he really didn't, just took the cake. The bottom line is that steve can't handle anyone being popular on RFM besides him. He wants to rule the roost and he basically does. The rules of RFM are not enforced whatsoever when it comes to steve. He can do whatever he wants, cut people down, insult them, personally attack them and so on. He can do whatever he wants and gets a pass I guess because of his Mormon celebrity status.
Steve, why don't you just buy RFM and make it yours, then you can ban everybody you don't like and set new rules, like, nobody can post unless they start out by saying, steve benson is my idol and I worship him as my God. It seems that would be the only way you could maybe, possibly satisfy that grand canyon sized ego that can't be fed enough.
Then again, you could do everyone a big favor and go on another hiatus like you did earlier this year. I think you've worn out your welcome again, so come back in about 6 months and try your game again, maybe with a better, improved attitude. I'm sure there will be plenty of new suckers that you can cut to the core with your sarcasm and insults. Also, you can start reposting all of your stories again from the beginning and amaze all the newbies with your accounts. It would also give you more time to fine tune them and embellish even more than you probably already have.
All I know is that Tal is way more loved than you steve(ouch, don't cry now big boy) because he seems to be a good, genuine guy and everything that you are not and most likely never will be. At least Tal is down to earth, funny and willing to have intelligent conversation and debate with anyone and gives everyone the benefit of the doubt, even you. He doesn't have to resort to the insults and adolescent behavior of a 2 year old, where apparently, you are much more comfortable. Grow up steve and act like an adult or get the hell out of here. I'm sick of your antics as are many others, so just go away please or start treating other posters with respect.
Then again, now that I think about it, stick around and continue to show everyone your true IQ, your daily antics and your behavior that is of a 2 year old child. Go ahead and continue to embarrass yourself and act like a jerk, it will only hurt your future book sales or precious RFM posts. I look forward to a day when you are either not here anymore, treating people with respect or writing posts that nobody responds to.
Have fun steve and I'm sure that admin will pull this post because nobody is allowed to say bad things about the self-crowned king of RFM, the almighty.....drum roll please.....steve benson. Ha Ha Ha.
Isn't it sad that we have to waste the precious RFM bandwidth talking about steve benson and his attacks on others. of course, I'm once again feeding this mans massive ego by writing this post but I felt that it needed to be said since I've had enough of this pompous ass. Attacking Tal was the last straw, uncalled for, unwarranted and completely out of line. In Steve's pathetic God-complex mind, he thought that he had gotten so big, that he could lash out at Tal and nothing would happen except that everyone would run to his side in gleeful support. Well steve, you were wrong. Is it the first time(in your mind of course) that you've ever erred? Just curious....
Now, either shut up, go away or quit picking fights with people and just write your crap. 99% of the people here are decent, respectful people that just want to share their experiences and help others. You, steve, are in the 1% and are indeed only in it for self glory. You don't give a damn about anybody else and obviously have no desire to truly help anyone with their pain, you just attack and insult them. Amazing that you could accuse somebody else of doing what you do everyday. Wow....I hope everyone can now see you for who you really are....after your actions of the last couple days and that you aren't one of us.
What a joke. Bye bye stevie, have a good one. Good luck in your future cut downs and insults of RFM posters. I hope that it gives you the great joy that you seek. By the way, how old are you again?
Subject: Re: To keep Steve happy, lets rename RFM. How about Steve Benson's RFM Date: Nov 11 04:02
I enjoy some of Steve's posts, but I have to agree with you about his attack on Tal, his big ego, his sarcastic put downs of everyone who disagrees with him and his general know-it-all attitude. He could use a bit of humility and would come across as a lot more likable if he could show some. I hope he sticks around and I also hope he can tone it down a bit.
Subject: The Motive of Every Poster Here is to Seek Attention to Themselves ....Date: Nov 12 03:03
...their thoughts, their observations, their experiences. This is why the lame retort of "just ignore my posts" doesn't entirely wash. The poster OBVIOUSLY wants people to read the post, to pay attention to the post, to comment on the post. If you are willing to post you open yourself up to any and all feedback. What else is the motive?
So why does Steve Benson post here incessantly if he doesn't care what other people think and doesn't care if people ignore his posts? What is his agenda for posting if not to seek attention for his thoughts/observations/experiences?
Subject: Not quite... (swearing)Date: Nov 12 03:23
It's not views that are unpopular or wrong that gets people riled up. I have seen PLENTY of disagreeing views and people are more or less civil. What really upsets people is watching someone throw their SHIT all over unsuspecting and undeserving posters. People get pissed off when they come somewhere to find friendship and thought provoking insights and they have to wade through crap flung far and wide by a self absorbed pompous ASS that has the ability to post very interesting ideas but instead wastes HIS time, EVERYONE else's time and BANDWIDTH with idiotic accusations and megalomaniacal BULLSHIT!!!
Subject: Well, to your credit, at least you gave us all a parenthetical heads-up before you . . .Date: Nov 12 03:26Author: steve benson
dumped your dastardly dung on what might have been an otherwise totally unsuspecting public. :)
Subject: Is that the best you can do? (more minor swearing)Date: Nov 12 03:35
Why don't you get all of your nasties out here and now, so maybe you can go to bed feeling like the big prick (oops, meant "big man") and hopefully tomorrow it will be all out of your system and you can get up and treat everyone with a little respect.
Come on, I can take it. I'm a big girl.
Subject: Well...Date: Nov 12 03:45
...have fun with your little hose. And while you are thus engaged, why don't you think about what an unpleasant place you have made this little neck of the Internet woods the past few days and try to come up with a way you can participate in this community without offending, putting down and chasing away good folk with your crummy attitude.
Good-night.
Subject: Re: *That is not what I meant at all -Date: Nov 12 01:58Author: Speaking of rules......
Speaking of rules, Steve Benson violates several of them all the time and you, Susan, do nothing about it. Now you are reminding us of the rules? I think you need to re-read the rules yourself and apply them to Steve Benson for once, that is if he is still around and I hope he is not.
Here are some examples of rules Steve violates on a regular basis without any reprimanding. These quotes are directly from the rule page in case anyone was wondering.
"How do I avoid having my posts removed?"
Easy!
1. Stay on topic-[Steve on topic? Attacking Tal and Reed Benson? Is that on topic Susan?]
2. Be polite-[Has that ever happened with Steve. He is always rude, cuts people down, and personally insults people. Again, it's a double standard. We can't do it but Steve can do anything.]
3. Use a consistent screen name.-[I know for a fact that Steve uses anon and many other names to stir up trouble.]
5. No personal attacks. Discuss and debate, but do not insult or attack.-[Wow, really? But it's okay for Mr. Benson to attack Tal, Reed Benson and whoever else he wants to attack. He can be belligerent, insulting, and has the freedom to do and say whatever the hell he wants. Why is this Susan? Why can't we all be allowed to freely break the rules and do whatever and say whatever we want without being censored. Oh yeah, we aren't Steve Benson, my bad.]
6. If you have strong feelings about something, don't preach. Your best bet is to share personal experiences.-[Ah okay, like Steve Benson does? Yeah, he never preaches, just shares, right, I forgot about that.]
Here are some examples of posts that will get removed:
1. personal attacks-[except for Steve Benson's posts.]
3. preaching-[Once again, unless you are Steve Benson.]
4. attempts to deliberately stir up trouble-[That is all Steve does, latest example, stirring up trouble with Tal for no reason at all. He blatantly attacked an innocent, popular poster, that everyone enjoys and why? You tell us Susan. Did you ask him? Did you shut him down? I think not. Steve did it because he is arrogant, condescending and can't stand anyone taking away from his presence. He felt threatened by Tal, because people like him and also, Tal is much funnier and more caring than Steve could or will ever be.]
5. faking a conversation by answering your own posts under different names-[Steve has done this on many occasions and you know it Susan. Come clean with everyone, you know it's true.]
6. complaints about censorship (ironic, ain't it)-[Yeah, it is ironic, unless you are Steve Benson, then this rule also doesn't apply.]
8. complaints about the admins (ditto)-[Well, if you can publicly tell us to obey the rules, then we can publicly ask you to also apply the rules, not selectively, but collectively.]
Susan, if you can ask us to obey the rule of using our own name when posting, we can ask you or encourage you to read the rules and apply them to Steve Benson. I find it so ironic that you are after us to use our own names by quoting a rule when you let Steve do whatever the hell he wants. Is he the one that has been paying the $1200 bill every year? I was just curious.
That would explain why he can do whatever he wants and why you always run to his defense. I can't think of any other reason why you and Eric bow down to this man at the expense of us normal folks. It's a shame that we leave the Mormon Church, only to come here and once again be restricted on what we can say and do, unless of course, we are Steve Benson. All I'm saying is if the rules are good enough for us, they are good enough for Steve Benson.
So, as you can see, several people were upset but it didn't matter and many of these posts were quickly deleted. Anything that was too harsh or negative toward Steve was deleted. One poster commented that he/she, had done a complete post on what they thought about the whole Steven Benson/Tal Bachman fiasco, but that is was deleted within 20 minutes. This particular poster is a regular poster with great things to say and I'm sure that post was highly critical of Steve Benson, thus prompting the quick deleting. I think you all get my point by now.
As said above, they should just rename the place Steve Benson's RFM, that might make him happy but you never can tell. Anyway, I don't want to waste anymore time talking about this clown because I have too many other things that I need to discuss, but I just thought it was necessary to let everyone know why I wasn't going to be on RFM anymore.
I've had several people Email me, wondering where I've been, if I was okay, etc, and I appreciate that very much. Thanks for your concern. I've just been extremely busy while observing things going on in RFM, plus working on my other projects. In short, I've just had a lot going on and took a little break from posting. I used to be a regular poster on RFM and most people seemed to like what I posted and it seemed to receive an overall positive response and then I was just gone and they wondered where I was. Honestly, it is just time for me to move on and try to help as many people as I can.
As mentioned above, several times, I'm very grateful for my time in RFM and for all that I have learned from the awesome people in there, but under the current conditions that I mentioned above, I can no longer be a part or participate there. Honestly, I just hate injustice and it's so frustrating to me but when there is nothing that I, as an individual can do about it, you are better off just walking away. Why stay there, get angry, bang my head on the wall, and not be able to honestly respond to Steve, as he does to everyone, without having my post deleted or getting banned for life.
Anything that I would say in RFM regarding Steve Benson, would just get erased anyway, so why waste my time and words on a losing cause. The owners and moderators love the guy, as do many people in RFM, so they can have him, love him, worship him, etc, but sadly, at the expense of some people like myself and others, that were there just to help people and gain knowledge as we work through our recovery.
The other thing is, that there are 3 great sites that I highly recommend to everyone and I have links to them here on Mormon Truth. They are The Mormon Curtain, The Church is not true and Joseph lied. They are all great!! Hyrum and Mike Norton do their podcast that is listed on The Church is not true, while Mike Norton also has his personal site, Joseph Lied and the Mormon Curtain links to both sites, including mine, while at the same time, also archiving many of my posts and promoting Hyrum and Mike's podcast, etc. I highly recommend going to the Mormon Curtain if you want to read more about his experiences with Susan this past week regarding RFM and pulling off posts from RFM to post on The Mormon Curtain.
Susan thinks he does it to boost his readership while at the same time, ignoring basically every word that he writes to her. It's crazy!! You guys can all read the Email correspondence between Infymus and Susan and make up your own minds. I think he lays out what his true intentions are and does it very clearly. It's a shame that Susan already has her mind made up to what his true intentions are and completely ignores all of his responses regarding the matter. The Mormon Curtain provides a great service to all Ex-Mo's or Non-Mormons and even TBM's and it's ashame that Susan couldn't find a way to work with Infymus instead of creating such a big problem.
We should be trying to be on the same team but I guess that there are divisions even within the Ex-Mo world. It's sad but the true reality. At least the rest of us seem to be working together for a common cause without any of these problems or accusations. I love it and I'm honored when someone pulls from my blog to post on other blogs or in other places. The only thing I ask, is that I'm given credit for the remarks and everyone has done that, without my even asking.
Infymus did the same thing, always giving credit to RFM and referring back to RFM and the original post and poster, so that people would be able to find it on his site and then join the conversation and even make comments if so inclined. Susan and Eric have a problem with that?!! My hell, he was promoting their site and they didn't even realize it or appreciate it. The only thing I can think of, is that these type of thought patterns, fear and paranoia, must come from their former "TBM" days. It just makes no common sense.
I also love how Susan kept referring to their Lawyer or legal people but refuses to give Infymus their name or names, so that His Lawyer could talk with their Lawyer(s). After his many attempts of asking for this information, I think we can safely say "BUSTED!!" Then it went from being a serious matter to her Lawyer(s) finding it very funny and laughing about it?!! Basically, Susan made a fool of herself and it's unfortunate. All she had to do was be honest from the very beginning, engage Infymus in "real conversation" dealing with their "real concerns" and it would have been so much easier.
So, hey, anyone out there that wants to quote me, post my comments, do it as often as you like, just give me credit. It would be an honor, not an insult. In fact, I've quoted Polygamy Porter for instance, on several occasions, and he would respond in RFM by saying, "cool, you quoted me on your blog", etc. That would be a normal reaction, wouldn't it?
I'm sure that I'll be banned for life too, after Susan and Eric, read this post or someone comments about it on RFM. Do I care? No I don't, not at all. I've repeatedly thanked the awesome people over there, including Susan and Eric for providing RFM for me and others during our recovery process. Sadly, I had to come to my own blog to be able to openly discuss these issues and my feelings because it simply isn't allowed over there, unless you are Steve Benson, being critical of someone else. Damn, I feel like I'm back in the Mormon Church again and I can't speak my mind.
.
I hate it when people try to take away your freedom and that free, feeling of freedom that I had after leaving Mormonism, was beginning to disappear in RFM. That was my sign to exit stage left and so here I am. I wasn't repressed for over 30 years, only to be repressed again as an Ex-Mormon in RFM. I guess it's safe to say that I quickly outgrew my surroundings and need for expression in RFM. It sucks to write what one considers to be a great post, only to have it disappear 10 minutes. Meanwhile, people like Steve Benson, can write whatever they want and it stays. Like I said, it was time for me to move on!!
My point is that RFM, is opposed and against those 3 sites that I mentioned above and will not allow any posts on RFM, to link to those sites. Why is this? How do I know this? Well, let me share my personal Email correspondence that I had with Susan a while back when I didn't know that Mike and Hyrum and any link to their site or show, were against the rules. Also, I found it very funny that Susan said that the site, The Church is not true, was begun by Polygamy Porter and Mike Norton, when it was actually Hyrum and Mike Norton. She didn't even have here facts straight, but Polygamy Porter has also had several problems with Susan and thought he was banned at one point. Actually, the truth was that Polygamy Porter had been a guest on the show and a great one at that. Everyone should go listen to that podcast if they haven't already. I think he also did a second show over the phone.
Anyway, Here is the original Email, with Susan's response above and my Email to here below:
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:09:14 -0400
From: exmolight@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Subject: Re: I just had a question?
To: samueltheutahnite@yahoo.com
Okie Dokie, the problem you hit is that Eric does not want the site that Norton and Porter started advertised on RfM. Period. I have cut that part out and put the post up for you :)
Sus I/S
-----Original Message-----
From: Samuel the Utahnite
To: exmolight@aol.com
Sent: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 23:29:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: I just had a question?
Susan,
I just started a post on whether "The Mormon Church is "really" against gambling?" Anyway, Polygamy Porter responded and I went to respond to him and the comments popped up saying something about the board being a moderated board and that my post would have to be checked first before it would be allowed to be posted?
So, it was either a mistake or I must be in some kind of trouble on your site that didn't exist 30 minutes before when I posted my post. I don't believe that there was anything out of bounds or legally wrong in my gambling post, it was pretty straightforward and is still on there. So anyway, get back to me as soon as you can and let me know what's going on. It just caught me by surprise. I can't imagine what I could have said that was offensive enough to have to now be monitored or banned with what I see on there on a daily basis regarding all sorts of topics. Get back to me as soon as possible and if I've done something wrong, please let me know what it was, so that I can correct it. It certainly wasn't my intention and I'm not even aware of what it is.
I've been posting my blog address on there, maybe that's it, but I've seen so many doing it, I didn't think that would be a problem. On my blog site, I always reference you guys and even have a link to you in my links. Anyway, get back to me and let me know what's going on and if it is possible to recover that last post I wrote to Polygamy Porter. Thanks,
Samuel the Utahnite
Now, here was another Email exchange about 2 weeks after I found RFM, back in July. I had written what I thought was a funny post about the Mormon temple but it was denied 3 times. I kept re-writing it, as it would just disappear with no explanation or Email, telling me why it was deleted. Anyway, I'll try to find the post, I have it archived and post it after this Email. It's amazing, with all of the stuff that is discussed, that my Email was so offensive, I guess it was the "illegal stuff." Once again, I'm going to keep the email in it's original form, my question is below and her answer is above:
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:29:50 -0400
From: exmolight@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Subject: Re: Sorry about the "Temple Movie" posts!!
To: samueltheutahnite@yahoo.com
Okie Dokie, the first was taken down because of the illegal stuff. Sneaking into a temple is illegal even if you don't film. There has recently been a big problem with someone that filmed inside a temple and wouldn't stop posting about it (and discussing showing it around on the net and irl) and they were asked to leave. This may have happened just as you found the board so you may not be aware of it.
We are really REALLY careful, we are owned by Eric and he carries the full liability. Our legal guys say no, we listen. It will be ten years this November the site has been up and we have not been sued or had legal trouble yet. Lots of people would like to see us closed down.
Now your second post is ok minus this: I'd just like to know when and where and sneak on the set.
Again it is sneaking and it would start up about sneaking into the temples again. So, I took that line out, put the rest back and topped it. And we never answer questions on the board. Pop it off in mail :).
Susan I/S
-----Original Message-----
From: Samuel the Utahnite
To: ExMoLight@aol.com
Sent: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:53:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Sorry about the "Temple Movie" posts!!
Susan,
Well, I just needed you to help me out. I made 3 posts about the "Temple Movies" and all 3 got deleted so I'm guessing that for some reason, this or anything that goes on in the temple must be off limits for some reason. My main reason for the posts was to find out if anyone ever knew anyone that had been in a "Temple Movie." The first post, I was joking around and asked if anyone had ever recorded it , asked some funny questions, etc. So, I deleted anything that I thought might have been offensive for some reason and re-posted it. Then the second one was also deleted!! So then I made a third one asking if the "Temple Movies" were off limit and that too was deleted!!
So, whatever the case may be, I'm sorry for bringing up a topic that is off limits or taboo. I truly wasn't aware of it. I see topics about sex, masturbation, personal experiences with Bishops, Stake Presidents and all matter of subjects and I just never thought that the subject of temples was off limits. I have so many questions now that I'm out of the Morg and one of the things that I have questions about is the Temple. Of course and I was trying to go about it in a light hearted manner which I guess wasn't deemed appropriate and that's fine as now I know.
I'm fairly new to this board, like 2 weeks or so and have had great response to many of the thinks that I have brought up and I just thought that this would be a good topic that I hadn't seen anyone discuss and I was curios. I guess that I was wrong. So once again, I apologize for anything that was branded offensive and would love an explanation for why it was offensive.
Here is the original post that I put up that was erased. As you can tell, I was just trying to be funny, not malicious, not realizing that someone had actually already recorded the movie and was bragging about it a couple of weeks before I arrived. I guess I was pushing the envelope on that one, but hey, like I said, does it say anywhere that you can't record the movie? honestly!! I never saw it. Keep in mind that I was pretty fresh out of the Church and wondering things that I had never wondered before...LOL. Anyway, here's the original post that got me busted for the first time in RFM. Amazing that these were the only two times they busted me....LOL!!
Post #45 Subject: Anybody have info on those temple films?Date: Jul 11 14:10Author: Samuel the UtahniteMail Address: samueltheutahnite@yahoo.com
I was just curious, anybody know someone that was in one of the temple films, where they were filmed, etc. I wonder what they did with the old films, they must be locked up in the vault in the mountain eh? It sure would be cool to be able to get a copy. I wish that someone would go to a session and record the movie secretly. Any offers?
I'm sure that they aren't checking for infrared like some of normal theaters are. I'm really amazed that someone hasn't done that already. Maybe they have and I'm just not aware of it. I haven't ever seen a copyright on the movie or that FBI warning about recording it, so it must be okay, right? Can you imagine how pissed they'd be?!! It would be all over the Internet in seconds, for the whole world to watch.
It would be cool to see all of the Satan's from the past and present sit down and have a round table, heck, throw in the preachers too. They should have a "temple movie reunion" party and get all the casts together!! Was there fighting on the sets? How did the people that got cut feel? Were the preachers pissed when they got cut out of the new version? Were the guys that played Satan like Jack-Mormons? Where they all members? Where Adam and Eve really naked on the Church set behind those bushes? I remember that Eve was pretty hot, especially in the older movies, did Adam ever get excited? Did they ever screw around? I wonder who actually wrote and directed the movies? Did they sell their tokens for money? I wonder what they got paid or was it a "calling" or "mission" to make the movie? Oh yeah, how did Peter, James and John have bodies again when they weren't even born yet?
That has to be the most screwed up movie I've ever seen, it never made sense!! Every time I went, I left more confused than when I got there. Was it meant to be literal or figurative? The funny thing is, the GA's don't even have the answer to that one....ha ha!! Someone asked President Kimball if he understood the movie and he said something like, "I'm more confused every time I see it!!" LOL!!
I'm sure it won't be long now and they'll make another one. I'd just like to know when and where and sneak on the set. Maybe, they film them on Kolob and the actors aren't even from Earth. Maybe God just beams it down when it's time for a new one. The Prophet shows up to work and there's a new movie, special delivery from Kolob, sitting on his desk. Just a few thoughts for fun....LOL!!
Hopefully RFM will continue to help people in their recovery process, it just isn't for me anymore. Hopefully one day, either Steve Benson will be held accountable to the rules like everyone else, or he will just go away. What's sad, is that he does have some great stories and insights to share, but with his rude and nasty attitude, he just ruins whatever he is trying to accomplish unless insulting people is his main goal
Anyway, that's about it, now on to more important issues. I didn't intend this post to be so long and I'm sure that some people, especially Steve Benson disciples, will be highly offended and won't return to my blog, but hey, that's fine with me. I had to speak my mind and clear the air and explain my absence from the RFM board.
Maybe in his personal life, Steve Benson is a great guy, a loving Husband and Father and just created this personality or persona, especially for RFM. At least I sincerely hope that to be the case. The parts of this post regarding Steve Benson, are only about his actions and attitude in RFM, not in his personal life. I do not personally know him and I'm only familiar with his actions and attitudes that are well documented in RFM. When you write 189 posts in 10 days, it's hard for people to not have a pretty good idea of who you are, at least in RFM.
Thanks guys for reading my blog and for all the emails and I promise that I'll now be posting again on a regular basis. I've been going 100 MPH and I needed to recharge my batteries while at the same time, planning for the future and the things that I want to accomplish in order to help as many people as possible. I sincerely apologize to those people reading this, that are Steve Benson and RFM fans, my intent was not to offend you, rather to share my feelings and observations regarding these matters. Maybe we can agree to disagree and move forward. Whenever I see blatant injustice, I have to speak my mind. I just had to get these things and matters off of my chest in a place where I couldn't and wouldn't be edited or deleted.
Take Care Everyone,
Samuel the Utahnite http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/
| | | | Tonight I'm Very Pissed About This And I Just Wanted To Share!
| | Posted Oct 26, 2005, at 10:20 AM. | FILED UNDER: MORMON TRUTH
| | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a | | ARCHIVED BY: Infymus | |
TOP | | First I want to say that there can now be now doubt whatsoever, how desperate the Mormon Church is becoming. They are really ramping up the pressure on members and the following example will prove to any doubters that this is now happening and not just some imaginary thing. Their desperation is palpable!! When it starts to include your Family and loved ones, that are getting abused, then it gets personal. For those that haven't read my other post regarding that pressure, that I wrote the other day, here is the link to that post:
http://www.exmormon.org/boards/w-agor...
Anyway, on to my story. I have an 85 + year old Grandma and Grandpa that still live on their own. They have never been that active in the Church but nevertheless, are baptized. I can't recall the last time that they actually went to Church, they have never paid their tithing, have never agreed with that and have never gone to the temple, etc. They joined later in their adult lives.
Anyway, in the last few years, the Church has taken a great interest in them for some reason, started sending home teachers, etc. They have offered to help them if they ever needed it and my Grandpa has taken them up on that offer on several occasions to cut the lawn, do weeding, etc, LOL!! (Good for him putting their asses to work) Well, tonight, I guess we found out why the Church has been investing this time in them. Obviously they were expecting to get something back at some point. The Church rarely does anything without hoping for something in return.
The Relief Society President called my Grandma and asked her to start doing missionary work during the week, like several days a week. Now my Grandma is not in the best of health and they absolutely know this!! My Grandma said that "she simply wouldn't be able to do it, due to her health." She might get out of the house one day a week if she is even able. The RS President continued on, asking her, over and over if there wasn't some way she could do it. My Grandma again said "that due to her health, that it would be impossible for her."
Finally, as a last ditch effort, after about 15-20 minutes, the RS President asked "if she could at least give 1 day a week to the Lord to help his work after all that he had done for her and her family?" She explained to her how important this missionary work was and that she "owed" it to God, etc. She said that God would bless her and her health for doing it, etc. (I guess my Grandma is in bad health because she doesn't do missionary work?) My Grandma had to say once again, that she Could not and would not because she wasn't able due to her poor health. The RS President was very upset and offended with my Grandma and that was the end of the phone call.
Tonight my Grandma and Grandpa were very upset and I'm furious!! They don't need this kind of shit in their lives causing them stress. This is flat out abuse of the Elderly which I have written about before on this board and my blog. I find this behavior to be despicable, disgusting and Loathsome as the child rapist/adulterer/pedophile Joseph Smith would say. How bad is it really becoming? Are they truly that desperate that they have to call and harass an almost 90 year old woman in poor health, along with guilt trips, to do their damn missionary work?
Obviously, things are much worse than I ever imagined. May the Mormon Church burn in hell if there is a hell!! Upsetting my Grandma tonight like they did is disgraceful and they should be ashamed of themselves, but they aren't. I'm sure they'll try again another day!! It's amazing that you feel, as an EXMO, that you are getting over your deep anger and then something like this BS happens. Right now I'm so damn mad, I can't see straight!! Damn evil cult!! If their is a devil or a Satan, it must be Gordon B. Hinckley and his thugs!! They don't care if you die trying to peddle their cult shit and they smile and laugh all the way to the bank!!
Thanks for listening guys as the abuse continues on in this evil cult.
Samuel the utahnite
Here was my post on how the Mormon Church abuses the Elderly and that was strongly confirmed to me tonight:
http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/2005/...
| | | | Ultimate Use Of Fear And Threats, Instilled By A Mormon Bishop To The Congregation At A Ward Conference
| | Posted Oct 20, 2005, at 08:56 AM. | FILED UNDER: MORMON TRUTH
| | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a | | ARCHIVED BY: Infymus | |
TOP | | This is one of the greatest abuses of Authority, by a Mormon Bishop, from the pulpit, that I'm personally aware of in my 30 + years of being associated with the Mormon Church. This statement comes directly, word for word from a missionary currently out in the field, that sends a weekly Email to his Family, who then forward it on to friends of the Family. I know that we have several archived threads in RFM on "missionary abuse", but this is definitely "member abuse."
I've been debating on whether to reveal the ward location and the name of the Bishop to the whole world, in order to show what an abusive coward this piece of garbage Bishop really is. I'm still shaking my head in astonishment over his arrogance. What's even more amazing, is that I'm assuming the brainwashed Morgbots just sat there and said nothing as he threatened them and tried to scare them into action. No member of any Church deserves this type of mental, emotional and psychological abuse.
This reminded me of Tal Bachman's story about General Authority William R. Bradford comparing people that were called to be Stake missionaries as Grade A or grade B berries VS. the rotten, damaged berries and calling them 'culls'. He then said, "So what do you do with them? You have to put them somewhere, so 'the culls' end up getting called as stake missionaries. It happened every time. There was nowhere else to put them. But they didn't really do anything there either, so we just eliminated the whole program".
Here is the link to that entire story. I highly recommend that everybody read this very revealing story if you haven't already. Thanks Tal for sharing your personal experiences with all of us:
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon...
May the Mormon God help any Bishop/Stake President/General Authority, that ever makes a statement like this, or the one that I'm about to share, in a meeting where I'm in attendance. I think for now, I'm going to keep the location and Bishop's name private, but let me know what you guys think should be done about this. I want the whole world to know what this horses ass is saying.
Anyway guys, here is the statement and I look forward to your responses and suggestions:
"Sunday was crazy we had our stake meeting with XXXX stake at 7:00 am. We then went straight to church at 9:00. It was ward conference and Bishop XXXX talked on some things that the ward needs to work on.The last thing that he spoke of was missionary work. HE said that the Lord is not pleased with the lack of missionary work that the members are doing. HE said that the Lord is WITHHOLDING blessings and that if they did not start doing their missionary work that THE LORD WOULD BRING DOWN A CURSING UPON THEM. I think that it was the first time that I have heard a bishop or anyone in church prophesy."
Well, there it is guys!! The Bishop has both promised and threatened the members of this ward that if they don't "start doing their missionary work", that "THE LORD WOULD BRING DOWN A CURSING UPON THEM." Furthermore, I find it disgusting and unbelievable that this missionary is so giddy and happy about hearing someone "prophesy" for the first time without any regard for what this "prophecy" was.
I guess if it is the first time for him, to ever see anyone prophesy, he must not get too much out of Hinckley or General Conference, but we all knew that already. What has Hinckley come up with? Women can't wear two earrings and let's cancel all missionary farewells and homecomings because, frankly, they don't deserve them!! He should be asking himself, why does a Bishop "prophesy" and the Prophet of God, of the one and only true church on the face of the earth, doesn't?
I think that these remarks, by this Bishop, shows us how DESPERATE the Mormon Church is getting. Was this the Bishop's statement, did it come from Salt Lake or the Stake President or the Area Presidency? Is this their new modus operandi? Are they now at the point of threatening and scaring members with "a cursing" from the pulpit in order to get their numbers and further fill their coffers with more tithing and fast offering funds?
I wonder how these members felt when they went to ward conference to feel the spirit and maybe try to get closer to God and ended up leaving with the promise of a cursing from God, prophesied and relayed by their Bishop, if they didn't start doing their missionary work?
I can say that where I live and in several other areas where I have contacts and friends or family, it is beginning to hit the fan big time. I think that the articles in the Tribune this week prove that they are going full throttle right now to find all of the so called "in transit" members. I mean, they now have call centers, etc, it's unbelievable.
They are now having special meetings both on the local and stake levels to organize their all out efforts to begin reactivating and finding the "lost souls." I get reports every week and they are planning their attack as we speak and this Bishop's remarks confirm what we all know is coming and planned. What happened to free agency? Oh yeah, I forgot, you don't have any when you belong to a damn cult!!
Samuel the Utahnite
http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/2005/...
http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/
| | | | Richard G. Scott Said That It's Up To Men To Help Women Realize Their "Intrinsic Worth."
| | Posted Oct 5, 2005, at 10:16 AM. | FILED UNDER: MORMON TRUTH
| | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a | | ARCHIVED BY: Infymus | |
TOP | | Richard G. Scott gave this talk in the Priesthood session in April of 2000. This talk is unbelievable to me and just proves to me how anti-women the Mormon Church really still is. We all know that they fought vehemently against the ERA in the 70's. Has anything changed? In other words, according to these "inspired men of God", women are too stupid and too worried about being sexy according to the world's standards and it's up to God's Priesthood holders to come to the rescue and bring them back into the fold. What a jerk!! This talk should help women understand why they aren't invited to the Priesthood session. I'm sure most men wouldn't have felt too comfortable with their wife by their side during this cult talk.
This talk is just yet another example of how the Mormon Church wants to suppress women by controlling them with overbearing men that believe that their Priesthood rules the roost and is the "cure all." This talk is sickening yet funny because it's so absurd in my opinion. Like he says, " Brethren, we can and must help them." As a man, I'm greatly insulted, I can only imagine how it must make women feel. It's like women are helpless and must have men to keep them in line. These men are truly pigs!!
Here are a couple of great quotes making my points listed above:
"So many of our sisters are disheartened, even discouraged, and disillusioned. Others are in serious trouble because of the choices they make. Satan has unleashed a seductive campaign to undermine the sanctity of womanhood, to deceive the daughters of God and divert them from their divine destiny. He well knows women are the compassionate, self-sacrificing, loving power that binds together the human family. He would focus their interests solely on their physical attributes and rob them of their exalting roles as wives and mothers. He has convinced many of the lie that they are third-class citizens in the kingdom of God. That falsehood has led some to trade their divinely given femininity for male coarseness."
"The growing success of Lucifer's efforts was emblazoned on my mind when in Salt Lake City I turned my car in front of a pickup truck loaded with attractive young women. Their vehicle then swerved in front of me, cutting dangerously close. The girls vented their displeasure with multiple vulgar comments and obscene gestures. They were dressed predominantly in male attire, yet some had immodest clothing that left little to the imagination. My heart sank. These are daughters of God. I resolved that if I ever had the chance, I would enlist the righteous priesthood of God to help such misguided young women. Brethren, we can and must help them. I fear that much of their plight comes from our own neglect or misdeeds. As a priesthood husband, father, son, or brother, each of us absolutely must help each daughter of God we can to realize what sacred characteristics Father in Heaven has given her. Many are being cheated of the rich, full life and the blessings God would have them receive. Will you help them understandwhat they are sacrificing as they are led as innocent, blind sheep by those who, for personal gain and self-justification, would rob them of their priceless womanhood? Because it is their nature to give and please others, many women do not realize their intrinsic worth. That loss makes them vulnerable to those who would convince them that their major role is to be physically appealing."
Here's the link for those that want to read the whole thing:
http://lds.org/conference/talk/displa...
http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/
| | | | My Very First Mormon General Conference As An Ex-Mormon!
| | Posted Oct 3, 2005, at 07:00 AM. | FILED UNDER: MORMON TRUTH
| | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a | | ARCHIVED BY: Infymus | |
TOP | | This is my first Conference as an EX-MO!! I find it rather funny and entertaining.....to hear L. Tom Perry and I'm sure many others to follow, stand at the pulpit, with a straight face, talking to the whole world and using fairy tales as examples of how we should live our life and who we should strive to be like.
I mean, this is crazy when you think about it; the Book of Mormon has been proved to be completely bogus and a fraud and yet they quote from it as if the people in it, actually lived and were real!! There isn't one shred of physical or DNA evidence that prove the Book of Mormon to be what it purports to be. I just can't believe that these men really believe that the Book of Mormon is true. Can they really be that stupid or are they just brainwashed? They have access to the complete truth in the archives of the Church, how can they not know? They have to be knowingly perpetuating a fraud!!
They talk about Nephi, Lehi, Laban, Joseph, etc, as if they are real!! Give me a break!! It would be like the Prophet, Apostles and Seventies standing at the pulpit, referring to Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck and Goofy, talking about the specific episode where they did this and that and that they should be examples to us in how we act in real life. I just find it hilarious!! Like I said, this is my first Conference as a non-believer and every time they reference someone or something in the Book of Mormon, I just laugh, knowing what I now know. I just can't believe that I was one of the stupid, brain-washed suckers that bought this crap hook line and sinker for over 30 years.
Today I'm grateful for my freedom in actually not believing in the fairy tale of the Book of Mormon, and the Church's Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck and Goofy!!
Samuel the Utahnite
http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/2005/...
| | | | The Soon To Be Famous "Mormon Sweet Roll Story!!"This Is An Instant Classic!!
| | Posted Oct 3, 2005, at 06:59 AM. | FILED UNDER: MORMON TRUTH
| | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a | | ARCHIVED BY: Infymus | |
TOP | | Susan W. Tanner,(one of only two women allowed to actually speak each Conference) shared a story about how her Mom had made these delicious sweet rolls. She said that they were so good and rich that they were equal to like 3 normal ones. I'm paraphrasing here, so forgive me if I get a detail or two a little wrong, after all, I was trying to watch football. When the exact link and text come out in a few days, I'll be sure to post it for everyone so that you too can have a great laugh as I did. This whole talk is good comedy in my opinion.
Anyway, she was talking about the sin of over indulgence and she was working it into the word of wisdom I believe. Anyway, that night at Family prayer, her Husband asked her to give the prayer(he was large and the in charge Priesthood holder). So, he asked her to pray and she just bowed her head in silent shame. Her Husband asked if she was okay or what was wrong. She then said that she had eaten 3 of her sweet rolls and didn't feel too good, she was sick.(Mormon laughter)
Then Sandra W. Tanner said basically that we shouldn't over indulge like her Mother did and offend our Spirits. Basically that her Mom had offended the Spirit by over indulging on her sweet rolls. I'll have to listen to it again but I think I got the gist of it pretty close.
In any case, what an asinine example of offending God and the Spirit by eating too many sweet rolls. If these people, like this lady, live that pathetic of a shallow life, then I fell sorry for her and anyone like her. Damn, if that offends God, I wonder what the alcohol sales in the Church's mall will do to God. He will be absolutely devastated and incredibly offended!! I guess God's spirit won't be hanging out in what is supposed to be Jesus' mall. That's a shame, it will probably hurt sales not to have the Holy Ghost whispering in peoples ears to buy this and that. I wonder if they have thought this through? LOL!!
But seriously, what a stupid ass example!! Is this lady for real? Obviously she has become what they have programmed her to be as a person, a MORGBOT!! How can shallow pathetic people like this Lady, deal with any real struggles, trials or tragedies when she is so damn concerned about how many sweet rolls somebody eats? Also that the quantity, of course, depending on the richness of the sweet roll, will be offensive to God and his spirit?!! So, if they aren't too rich, like 3 normal rolls would be, then maybe 3 is okay? How can you know for sure? Maybe one should kneel down and ask God what they should do? "God, can I have one more, please?" Then pray again and again, after eating the next one, until God says, "you've had enough my good child, go and eat no more!!" LOL!! Are you kidding me?!!
With that being said, I have 3 sweet rolls right now, sitting on the kitchen counter...I think I'll go try to offend God's spirit and eat all 3 of them. Of course, I may be okay if they don't have too much flavor, right?!! I'll have to return and report on this one!! I'll have to see if I can actually feel God's spirit withdraw from me as I eat them. Maybe the first two and a half will be okay but that last half will be my downfall. Hard to believe that people listen to this crap and actually believe it!! The next thing you know, it will be a commandment to not eat more than two sweet rolls.....LOL!! It will catch on like Hinckley's "only one earring" opinion...I mean now commandment.
Damn, stupid, pathetic cult!!
Samuel the Utahnite
http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/2005/...
| | | | The Mormon Church Continues to "Whitewash" And Lie About Their History through Pictures Sold At "God's Official Bookstore", Deseret Book!
| | Posted Sep 28, 2005, at 08:38 AM. | FILED UNDER: MORMON TRUTH
| | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a | | ARCHIVED BY: Infymus | |
TOP | | Hey for only $375, we can get a picture of Joseph Smth.....sitting at a table, looking at the Golden Plates and translating them. Of course, we know that isn't how it happened. Where's the 21 X 29 Limited Edition Framed Print of Joseph Smith with his head jammed into a hat with no plates to be seen anywhere near him?
http://deseretbook.com/store/product?...
Amazing how Deseret Book helps the Church perpetuate a fraud by selling bogus, false ideas through their art work sales. Of course, it doesn't really surprise me at all, after all, Deseret Book is God's "official bookstore" and anything they do or sell must be inspired or justified in the name of God, right?
The Church has been selling this picture for as a long as I can remember and they know that it's a lie. I bought this stupid picture in the MTC and had it up on the wall wherever I lived for my whole mission. I then gave it to a member, along with all of my other dumb ass pictures that I bought of Nephi, Lehi, etc. And we wonder why everyone thinks it happened this way and that Joseph Smith sat at a table looking at plates?
Continue Reading http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/2005/...
| | | | Unbelievable!! Get Your Temple Medallion Key Chains, Christmas Ornaments
| | Posted Sep 26, 2005, at 08:02 AM. | FILED UNDER: MORMON TRUTH
| | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a | | ARCHIVED BY: Infymus | |
TOP | | Unbelievable!! Get your Temple medallion Key chains, Christmas Ornaments elegant necklaces or money clips. Also, there's individual temple medallions, a collectors club or you can create your own temple medallion book. As they say, there's a collector in each one of us, especially die-hard Mormons who must have their temple medallions.(Website link below)
Now, don't forget the Nauvoo temple medallion set, it's a treasured gift. LOL!!
I just saw the commercial on TV and thought this was hilarious. I actually think it's pretty cool and funny that this guy came up with this way to make money off of all the die-hard TBM's assuming that it isn't Church affiliation, which it appears not to be on the surface. I'm sure that there will be a lot of Members getting Temple medallions in their stockings this year for Christmas. Anybody know this guy or if he has any Church affiliation? I would actually love it if he was a Never-Mo or Ex-Mormon and found a way to profit of off the members and the Church.
I'm sure all of the General Authorities and especially the First Presidency and Apostles, will be ordering their Salt Lake Temple money clips to help hold their "monthly living allowance." They can flash it around when they visit poverty stricken areas like Africa and South America, while they ask members to sell their gold fillings to help build the next temple. They can awe the members with something so beautiful and make them wish that one day they could have one.
At the moment, they only have 87 temples and are asking for help on getting pictures of the other temples. Also,if your photograph is used for the medallion, then you will receive the first .999 fine silver medallion in a gift box ($29.95 value)to come out of the mint for that temple.
What a deal!! We had better jump on that one!!
Anyway, I just found this site very entertaining. Like I said, I don't know if this guy is a member or not, affiliated with the Church or not, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Church owned this Coin store or if the Church is somehow profiting from his sales of temple medallions. If the Church isn't involved, they probably just fired their marketing director for not coming up with it first. After all, they are really just a corporation and have nothing to do with God or Jesus whatsoever. They could have sold these medallions in the restaurants in their new mall while people were getting liquored up on alcohol that they are invested in.
The alcohol would have made it easier to help the people realize that they should join the "temple medallion collectors club" and at the same time repent of their sins. I guess they may have missed out on this one!! Oh well, maybe they can market life size replicas of former Prophets and Apostles instead, plus mini ones to put on key chains and stuff. There is the Joseph Smith loves Fanny Alger pencils for the kids and on and on. Think of all the possibilities!! LOL!!
Actually, maybe I'll do that.....shhhh...don't tell anyone about my idea!! I'm gonna make millions baby!! LOL!! All those TBMS won't be able to wait to have that life size Joseph Smith in the entryway of their house!! What a conversation starter!! That will help them break the ice with their Non-Mormon neighbors to help out the missionaries. LOL!!
Here's the website, get your Christmas shopping done early this year. These medallions are for the "TBM" that has everything:
http://rustcoin.com/medallions.htm
http://www.exmormon.org/boards/w-agor...
| | | | Mormons, Pornography, Alcohol, Hypocrisy, Marriott's And Tithing!
| | Posted Sep 22, 2005, at 06:52 AM. | FILED UNDER: MORMON TRUTH
| | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a | | ARCHIVED BY: Infymus | |
TOP | | OK, so here it is, plain and simple; JW Marriott Jr. who just recently spoke at a Stake conference in Virginia is a complete hypocrite and so is everyone in the Church hierarchy that praises him. I know he was called as an area Seventy in around 1997 and as far as I know, still is. I can't find a release date. A family member was just praising him this past weekend; what a spiritual man, he shared some incredible experiences, etc.
Meanwhile, he continues to make about an estimated $190 million a year(this was a few years ago) on his pay-per-view pornos in his hotel chain, even in Provo. Who knows how much he makes from the mini-bars and all the alcohol he sells.
http://cwfa.org/images/content/wcp-re...
Hmm....just wondering, does he pay tithing on the profits that he makes from such horrible and evil things that we are warned in every conference to stay far away from? The things that are destroying families? He would have to, wouldn't he? I mean to hold a Church leadership position and go to the temple, you must be a full tithe payer, right?
So if the Church does knowingly accept his dirty porno and alcohol money as tithing, then I guess that they are fine with it and support porno and alcohol. That is the only conclusion I can come to!! They wouldn't happen to be hypocrites would they? They would never tell us to do something that they are personally OK with, would they? Ha ha...we all know the answer to that one!! I would love to hear your thoughts.
Continue Reading - http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/
| | | | Mormon Missionary Nate T. Nelson Strikes Again!
| | Posted Sep 14, 2005, at 08:02 AM. | FILED UNDER: MORMON TRUTH
| | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a | | ARCHIVED BY: Infymus | |
TOP | | From MormonTruth:
I said that I would post this guys apology for having taken the picture where he was making fun of what appears to be a homeless guy. Well, the problem is, he doesn't want to seem to apologize. He sort of did but then followed it up by being a real smart ass and spewing some BS that in my opinion wiped out any intention that he may have had to say he was sorry. Then Today, I saw this picture with the words "YEEHAW" above the pics and then below the picture are the words, "this one's for you gonzoman! =)" Gonzoman is a guy from the Fair Boards that was in opposition to his original post. It's just unbelievable to me!! This guy is a real pompous jerk!! Now, I want to share with you Nate T Nelson's words of wisdom regarding his first picture when confronted on the Fair Boards. You guys can decide the true intent he had by reading his own words.
http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/
| | | | Mormons Teach That You Are Better Off "Dead" Than To Have Any Degree Of Sexual Relations Before Marriage!
| | Posted Sep 12, 2005, at 11:04 AM. | FILED UNDER: MORMON TRUTH
| | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a | | ARCHIVED BY: Infymus | |
TOP | | Now, to follow up my disturbing Temple Post from yesterday, I thought I'd share another very disturbing and very evil Church Doctrine. By the way, if you go to the Church museum in Salt Lake City, Utah, you will find a shrine to President Kimball with his book, "The Miracle of Forgiveness" taking center stage. It says something like, "this book has helped so many people around the world", etc. Of course it fails to mention the people that committed suicide after reading it and feeling completely worthless and hopeless.
In my opinion, that book, "The Miracle of Forgiveness", is one of the most evil books ever written, especially within the Mormon Church. I believe very strongly that that one book has done much more damage than it has ever done good. It has destroyed lives and families and continues to do so. It is the standard response from the Bishop to any horrible,sinning, fornicator or masturbator. It is nothing to be proud of and should be taken out of print and removed from display in the Churches Museum. The book is pure evil!!
http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/
| | | | An Awesome E-mail Written In Response To Merrill J. Batemans Appearance On KUER Radio In Utah
| | Posted Sep 2, 2005, at 07:25 AM. | FILED UNDER: MORMON TRUTH
| | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a | | ARCHIVED BY: Infymus | |
TOP | | Fist of all, everyone that is interested, can listen to the show and then make their own conclusions. To me it is obvious that Merrill J. Bateman is a liar and a deceiver. He knows what's really going on but would never admit it. He doesn't want to lose his big fat monthly pay check and his "Mormon celebrity status." I discovered this email tonight and I thought it was awesome, eloquent, to the point and very powerful. I hope you guys enjoy it. It was written by "Free at last" over on the Mormon Recovery Board. We thank you "Free at last" for writing such a great response to a man who knowingly lied on public radio. Thanks for all of your hard work and documentation on this E-mail.
Here is the link to listen to the show:
http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/kue...
To Whom It May Concern:
I listened to Doug Fabrizio’s interview today with Mormon Elder Merrill J. Bateman. What Bateman did not acknowledge on the radio is the significantly negative impact of the Internet on the church’s growth, member retention, and missionary efforts.
For generations, the information that people received about Mormonism came from church sources: General Authorities like Bateman, missionaries (who were trained to deliver a “package” of propaganda to potential converts), local church leaders and teachers (who relied on church publications like lessons manuals and policy booklets) and church materials such as the Ensign magazine and missionary pamphlets. Relatively few members and investigators knew that “anti-Mormon” literature existed, or had access to such materials. For generations, the LDS church controlled the information about Mormonism that most people received. History has shown that those who control information are able to manipulate the masses.
In the past ten years, the Internet has taken away much of the control of information that the LDS church had since the 19th century. Today, any person with access to the Internet can find out facts about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, early church history, and other aspects of Mormonism that the church has concealed from members and potential converts for generations. For example, by going online, people can learn that Smith not only had polygamous wives, but he married women who were already married, and married girls as young as 14 when he was in his 30’s. With a few clicks of a computer mouse and keystrokes, the church’s carefully crafted image of Joseph Smith as a righteous Prophet of God is blown away by non-faith-promoting facts. For the past 150+ years, the LDS church has worked very hard to conceal these facts from members and potential converts in order to bolster their faith in the church and its senior patriarchal leadership, past and present. Thanks to the Internet, each day Latter-Day Saints and non-members who are investigating Mormonism are discovering truths that seriously conflict with what the church wants them to believe.
Another thing that Bateman did not point out is that the church’s young missionaries are being confronted by investigators who are going on the Internet and learning dark and disturbing facts about Mormonism, and then de-converting the naïve missionaries, who are shocked to learn that what they were taught during their formative years by the church was far from the truth. Smith’s practice of polygamy and polyandry, Brigham Young’s teachings about Blood Atonement and God having sex with Mary to create Jesus, and the church’s racist doctrine regarding blacks and the priesthood are just some of the many faith-shaking facts that people discover online.
The Internet has also made scientific information much more readily available to the general public, which has had, and continues to have, a significantly negative effect on the Mormon Church in terms of member retention and converts. For example, online, people can learn about DNA research (including research done by BYU) that does not support the church’s teaching that the Book of Mormon is a history of two great peoples who lived in the ancient Americas. The DNA data clearly shows that the ancestors of Native Americans did not come from Israel, as the Book of Mormon states and the church has taught since Joseph Smith’s day, but from northeast Asia. The research is so irrefutable that the church is now saying, “Nothing in the Book of Mormon precludes migration into the Americas by peoples of Asiatic origin.” (ref. http://www.lds.org/newsroom/mistakes/...). This official statement contradicts the teachings of Mormon presidents, apostles, and other senior church leaders since 1830 (the year Joseph Smith founded the Mormon Church). Mormons are going on the Internet and learning facts that do not support the “keystone” of the LDS religion (the Book of Mormon), and many other things that they were systematically indoctrinated to believe were “true” and came from God. In many cases, the result is psychological and emotional shock, and a great deal of anger that the church and its senior leadership have abused their trust (and took their money). You can read some of their stories here: http://www.exmormon.org/stories.htm.
Another aspect of the Internet that has significantly impacted the LDS church is the recovery from Mormonism movement and the various related websites. The Recovery from Mormonism website (http://www.exmormon.org/) alone gets 140,000+ hits and hundreds of posts each day. Through online bulletin boards and blogs, Latter-Day Saints are able, often for the first time in their lives, to share their doubts about the LDS church and Mormonism. In the church and their Mormon families they were never allowed to speak their personal truth, never permitted to saying anything that might “rock the boat” of another Mormon’s faith or call into question a church doctrine/teaching. But online, they are able to be real, to be themselves, and to openly discuss their thoughts and feelings about the church and the changing world of Mormonism. There are websites where people can find out how to terminate their membership in the LDS church (http://www.mormonnomore.com/), for gay and lesbian Latter-Day Saints (http://www.affirmation.org/), and to report incidents of Mormon ecclesiastical/priesthood abuse (http://www.mormonalliance.org/). There is an online support group for women who have left the Mormon Church (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/XLDSWom...) and a popular Mormon humor website (http://www.salamandersociety.com/) with a cheekiness that isn’t permitted on conservative LDS websites.
Yet another aspect of the Internet that is negatively impacting the LDS church is the easy availability and rapid dissemination of non-faith-promoting news. For example, in June of this year, the Salt Lake City Tribune reported that the church was spending $1 billion dollars to buy, renovate, and expand two shopping malls in SLC. Within minutes of this article appearing on the Tribune’s website, a link to it was put up on the Recovery from Mormonism website. Readers saved and e-mailed the article to Mormons and ex-Mormons. The Tribune subsequently nixed the online article. Some Latter-Day Saints who became aware of the news are wondering why they should pay 10+% of their income to a multi-billion dollar church that is asking them to contribute even more in fast offering for the poor and needy while it enlarges its real estate portfolio with a very expensive acquisition. Mormons remember that it was not too long ago that the church cried poor and laid-off hundreds of meetinghouse custodians and other church employees. Saved online news reports help us remember the facts that the church’s senior leadership would prefer members forget (e.g., the forger Mark Hoffman duping Gordon Hinckley and other senior church leaders in the 1980’s).
In closing, the Internet is significantly affecting the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in ways that its patriarchal leadership does not like. People are learning the facts/truth and leaving the church, realizing that their trust has been abused and they have been manipulated. The church’s senior leadership will not publicly acknowledge this reality, but it is happening, and will continue to negatively impact the church’s membership numbers, member activity rates, missionary efforts, and retention of converts.
Exit Counselor (Mormonism)
Samuel the Utahnite http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/
| | | | An Interesting Article About The Church And Two Missionaries In Hawaii
| | Posted Sep 1, 2005, at 09:34 AM. | FILED UNDER: MORMON TRUTH
| | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a | | ARCHIVED BY: Infymus | |
TOP | | I just wanted to share a few highlights from this article that I think you guys will enjoy. I found it to be pretty entertaining!! These two missionaries remind me of some of the guys that I came across on my mission. I hope that I was never as bad as they are!!
Here are some quotes from the article:
See this," Kyle says. "We leave a pamphlet at each door, then three days later, we come back to see if they have read it."
I ask him how they know where to go and who to talk to.
"The spirit will tell you where to go," Sargent says. "Yeah, or we pray and then pick streets from a map.
"We can read people like a book," he continues. "They give us every excuse under the sun. 'Oh, I'm not religious; Oh, I'm sick; Oh, I'm just on my way out.' We have heard it all."
"Yeah," says Kyle, with a shrug, palms turned upward. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
They open their car trunk, revealing a stunning cache of informational videos, stacks and stacks of "contact cards," The Book of Mormon and other missionary paraphernalia. Then they pray.
"Lord in heaven give us the ability to soften hearts," they pray. "Let us pave the way for many blessings. Bless us with thy spirit to give us what is needed at each door, Jesus. Amen."
"I used to want to be a journalist, but we Mormons be havin' a lot of kids. Heh, heh, so you got to make money. Journalists don't make no money."
We make our way up the stairs to the second floor of the apartments. The Mormons wear their religious books stuffed in the backs on their pants, held securely by their belts. It reminds me of a Maitre'd in a fancy French restaurant.
"This is the best pen in the world," Elder Sargent tells me, clicking and clacking his ballpoint pen. "Best in the world. Try it. Feel that power. Best pen in the world."
We arrive at one door and knock.
"Hello, my name is Elder Kyle and this is Elder Sargent," Kyle says to the occupant. "We're from the Church of Latter Day Saints. Have you heard of us?"
"Yes," the occupant replies.
"Would you care to hear a message that will change you life?" Kyle asks.
"I do not want to be bothered," the occupant says.
"We will leave a flyer and be back in three days."
"I will call the police."
In the spiritual geography of Mormonism, the Garden of Eden is located in Independence, Missouri and the Mormon creation myth postulates that American Indians were "the first Mormons." Thus, the Mormon story is bound up with that of the New World. With the colonization of North America came the culmination of the prophesies of the Book of Mormon.
There they learn one of the 50 languages the MTC teaches. Later they get instruction on how to convert others, disarm skeptics, dress, talk, act and live. They read religious literature and watch promotional films. And they sing the traditional missionary hymn "Called To Serve."
Called to serve Him, Hean'nly King of Glory
Chosen e'er to witness for his name,
Far and Wide we tell the Father's story...
Onward, ever onward...
Called to serve our King
The Church of Latter Day Saints strictly forbids abortions. It's not particularly shocking that Utah has the highest birth rate in the U.S. In fact, its population growth is greater than Bangladesh.
Yet its religious foundation is Semitic and ancient. The Mormon story tries to connect with the Hebrew story and insert itself into antiquity. Mormons call Utah "Zion" and slander non-believers as gentiles. They see in their journey to Utah similarities to the Jewish Diaspora and subsequent return to Israel. Mormons reckon they have a metaphysical bond with the Jews and the even fancy themselves a lost Hebrew tribe.
Mormonism is a culture where obedience and organization is among the highest of virtues. Numbers are meticulously recorded, members are grouped into various geographical classifications and there are strict regulations on personal issues. Serving on a mission is like working at Disneyland: Cut your hair, shine your shoes and so on.
While the Mormons' zeal for converting the natives is considerable and sincere, their enthusiasm wanes when the conversation turns to interracial sex and marriage. For most of the 20th century, African Americans were barred from the priesthood and interracial marriages were considered a sin of the highest order. It was only in 1978 when blacks were allowed to join. Intermarriage is still considered an unforgivable transgression.
How long the Church can maintain this segregation is unknown. When viewed next to the locals' brown skin and pidgin talk, the missionaries seem woefully out of place. Their blond hair and blue eyes stand out in the land of dusky-skinned islanders.
In choosing Mormonism, Hawaiians willfully submit to the coldest kind of imperialism. They lose the only thing that was ever truly theirs: Culture. They lose themselves in a sea of white shirts, skinny ties and bad haircuts.
When a person becomes a Mormon, any individuality is annihilated. You become part of a homogonous unit, where independent thoughts and actions are a sin--on the grounds that they are "worldly"--and the puritanical moralism of the American west gets transplanted to the Pacific.
Later, Elders Kyle
and Sargent and I are cruising in their white sedan. We're supposed to visit a young girl who, I am told, was once a Mormon but wants to get back into the swing of things. She is homeless and living with a dozen other young people in a squatters' settlement near Waiehu.
We pass by a golf course and are approached by an adolescent. He is mentally disabled and collecting golf balls. We slow down and he quickly walks up to the car, giving us a shaka and shaking each of our hands slowly. He is smiling widely, drooling and squinting at us as if we are miles away from him.
"I am Elder Kyle and this is Elder Sargent," says Kyle. "We're from the Church of Latter Day Saints..."
I roll my eyes.
"Do you believe in God?" asks Kyle.
Just then, his mother comes to get him, herding the kid back to wherever they came from. "Hi guys," she says. She is a Mormon as well.
For white bread kids from suburban Utah, to be a missionary is pure adventure.
I feel like I am watching an episode of Dragnet, with Elder Sargent as Joe Friday and Kyle as Officer Gannon. They have this synthesized cooperation. They do not bicker or treat each another poorly.
"Leave a card," says Kyle. "We can come back tomorrow."
'Sure thing, buddy," says Sargent. MTW
Well, I found this article to be very interesting, honest and very funny. This magazine is like the Salt Lake City weekly here in Utah and is independent, thus the honesty. I really liked the way they summed up the Mormon Church and it's beliefs. If any of you want to read the entire article, here is the link:
http://archive.mauitime.com/v08/v08_2...
Samuel the Utahnite http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/
| | | | What Good Does The Mormon Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley Do Anyway? What Would Hinckley Say To The People In Louisiana, Mississippi And Alabama?
| | Posted Aug 31, 2005, at 06:58 AM. | FILED UNDER: MORMON TRUTH
| | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a | | ARCHIVED BY: Infymus | |
TOP | | I know it's a long title but just name it whatever you want, I'm fine with whatever you want to put as the title. Just something involving Hinckley and the people that were hit by the hurricane in the Midwest. Thanks!!
Basally, he's completely worthless as a supposed Prophet, Seer, Revelator, Oracle or mouthpiece of God!! He's a joke!! Why is it that he can't predict Tsunamis, Hurricanes, earthquakes, acts of terrorism or any other tragedy? Yeah, yeah, God can't interfere right? That is, unless you are a Mormon!! Well, that is unless you are the Mormon Tabernacle choir that was supposed to be in London the day of the bombings. But, thanks to Hinckley's "supposed revelation", they were spared.
To damn bad that the Ole Hinckster didn't give Tony Blair a phone call if it was indeed a revelation from God. Also, if it was a revelation from God, not just a lucky coincidence and Hinckley knew what was going to happen and didn't make "the call", then the blood of all those poor innocent people is all over his hands. The truth was that he just canceled their tour due to the turmoil around the world in general and didn't have a freaking clue that something was going to happen "that day" in London. Why would he? He doesn't know anything!! He isn't even familiar with Church doctrines that have been taught for 175 years let alone when terrorists are going to attack London. To be frank, he doesn't know his head from his ass!!
You know you are in trouble as the "Mormon Prophet of God" when the current news on the weather channel is all new to you and nothing that you have even remotely thought of or had revealed to you. Imagine if "God's living oracle", made regular predictions and warnings that turned out to be true and saved tens of thousands of lives around the world. People would listen and respect him!! People would convert in droves!! He would indeed be revered as a modern day Moses as Kim Clark(New President of BYU Idaho) referred to him. For now, I'll refer to him as a modern day uninspired loser without any perception or inspiration about anything.
Unfortunately for Hinckley, the only people that even give a tinkers damn about what he says are lifelong "Morgbots", die-hard "TBM's" who look at him like he's Abraham or Moses, with stars in their eyes. They agree to give their own life for him and his Church rather than reveal the "secrets" of the "Mormon Masonic temple rituals." They agree to dedicate all of their time, talents and money to his bogus fraud, even it means making their own Family suffer. They consecrate their lives to the Church and always put the Church before their own families.
Since Hinckley has been the Prophet, the only supposed "revelations" that he has received are: 1-Women can only wear one set of earrings, not two or more. 2-We must cancel all missionary Farewells and Homecomings 3-We must go on a massive temple building spree(Including mini temples) to try to get more tithe payers 4-One day it popped in his head that they needed a Conference Center for $300-$500 million. He thinks it was inspired of god, not sure though 5-That they had to buy a mall and spend a billion dollars or more to remodel everything both of their malls 6-His crowning jewel of revelations, "the malls will be closed on Sundays to keep the Sabbath day holy but Monday through Saturday, they will allow alcohol to be served in their malls. However, they will sell the exact land where the restaurant is, so that it will be in their mall, but not their land, therefore not they aren't selling alcohol. Unbelievable!! Next time you go see your Bishop, use that analogy to justify anything you've done. Well Bishop,we had pre-marital sex but even though it was my body, it was not my car....unbelievable!!
I could go on about the Mormon Church buying land in Nebraska, building a luxury resort in Hawaii, etc, etc. My point being that he hasn't done one useful thing to help "the world." Meanwhile, we have Hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, terrorism, etc and he has no clue about any of it. He is worthless to the world, does nothing for the world or the Saints to protect them and this is a "Prophet of God?" No way!!
Now, I've been pondering what he might do for the people in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama. What could he come up with if he went there to give a speech. Hey, I've got it, let's look back at the April Conference and Elder Lynn G. Robbins Of the Seventy. He gave a talk entitled "Tithing—a Commandment Even for the Destitute." All we have to do here is review, from his talk, what Hinckley said to the victims of Hurricane Mitch, which in October of 1998, devastated many parts of Central America. This will help us to know what he might say to these hundreds of thousands of people in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama, that were left homeless and without anything. No food, no clothes, nothing.
So here it is, what Hinckley will say when or if he goes to visit them(See if the conditions sound familiar):
President Gordon B. Hinckley was very concerned for the victims of this disaster, many of whom lost everything—food, clothing, and household goods. He visited the Saints in the cities of San Pedro Sula and Tegucigalpa, Honduras; and Managua, Nicaragua. And like the words of the loving prophet Elijah to a starving widow, this modern prophet's message in each city was similar—to sacrifice and be obedient to the law of tithing.
But how can you ask someone so destitute to sacrifice? President Hinckley knew that the food and clothing shipments they received would help them survive the crisis, but his concern and love for them went far beyond that. As important as humanitarian aid is, he knew that the most important assistance comes from God, not from man. The prophet wanted to help them unlock the windows of heaven as promised by the Lord in the book of Malachi (see Malachi 3:10; Mosiah 2:24).
President Hinckley taught them that if they would pay their tithing, they would always have food on their tables, they would always have clothing on their backs, and they would always have a roof over their heads.
What is Hinckley, just a modern day con artist? He should go work at the circus and carnivals!! How could a man be so cold, so heartless and despicable. These people lost EVERYTHING and all he can think of is PAY YOUR TITHING!! What a scumbag!! He should be ashamed of himself but it's hard to be ashamed of yourself when you know no shame!! If you are a "TBM", on the fence on whether you should leave the Church, have a few doubts about things, I hope that these amazing comments by President Hinckley will be just what you needed to exit out of the Mormon Cult that preys and robs from the poor, homeless and those that in reality have nothing. I wonder how his ridiculous promise applied to those that were already paying their tithing and now had no "roof over their head", no "food on their table" and only the clothes on their backs, just like the people now that just got hit by this hurricane, they had nothing. But hey you homeless, starving, on the verge of death people, PAY ME YOUR DAMN TITHING SO THAT GOD WILLBLESS YOU!! HE WOULD LOVE TO OPEN THOSE WINDOWS BUT HE'S WAITING FOR YOUR TITHING FIRST!! JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE LOST EVERYTHING, HAVE NOTHING, THAT IS NO EXCUSE. PAY ME NOW!!
http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/
| | | | Another Mormon Temple Groundbreaking Story, Involving Faust, Donations And An 8 Year Old Little Boy
| | Posted Aug 31, 2005, at 06:55 AM. | FILED UNDER: MORMON TRUTH
| | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a | | ARCHIVED BY: Infymus | |
TOP | | At the groundbreaking ceremony, Elder W. Craig Zwick of the Seventy and president of the Brazil Area remarked, "It was heartwarming to see about 50 buses that had been used to transport the people, and to see the people assembled on the hill; it was a multitude of faithful saints. The whole experience felt Pentecostal." Referring to a letter from an eight-year-old boy, who had worked hard to earn a $100 donation to help with the construction of the thirty new smaller temples announced in April conference, President James E. Faust observed that he and a man who sent in one million dollars that same day "[would both] be equally blessed for their faithfulness, regardless of the size of their donation" (Church News, 9 May 1998).
http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/cgi-b...
Well, with the Faust and gold fillings story in Brazil, Hinckley in Panama demanding tithing, Faust in Peru just a few weeks ago saying, “You have to earn another temple”, nothing should surprise us and we know just who these men are. I wonder how the little boy felt to hear that some man had sent a million dollars when he had scraped and sacrificed for a meager $100? They are greedy, disgusting thieves!! These men are cold, calculating and evil!! They literally rob from the poor, in the name of God, to give to the rich, themselves!!
Then you read or listen to the tithing talk by Elder Lynn G. Robbins Of the Seventy, from the April Conference where he says, "if a destitute family is faced with the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should pay their tithing."
Then you look at Septembers Ensign and Friend magazines and guess what is covered? You got it, tithing of course!! The Church is obsessed with tithing and always will be. They just want more money, no matter how they get it or who they take it from. They'll buy gold fillings out of poor peoples mouths, show them around to congregations and take $100 from an 8 year old little boy, just to continue to build their palaces and further their kingdom of fraud, deception and greed!!
It is truly a very sad state of affairs!!
http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/
| | | | Faust's Latest Comments To The Poor People In Peru
| | Posted Aug 28, 2005, at 06:58 AM. | FILED UNDER: MORMON TRUTH
| | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a | | ARCHIVED BY: Infymus | |
TOP | | I found a website from a missionary that is currently in Peru and he said the following on his latest post from Monday, August 15, 2005:
"Yesterday, Sunday, President Faust and Elder Holland spoke to Peru. We´re having problems with inactives and tithing. President Faust laid it out and said “You have to earn another temple”. I´m excited about the work, everyday I learn something new. I´ve only been here 5 days but they seem to blur into one, everything goes by so quickly. My feet are blistered, my back is killing me, and the constant noise feels like a drill to my head. But I´ve never been happier in my life, nothing could have prepared me for this (though I wish I had been more diligent at home), its simply amazing."
So, lets see, they are having problems in Peru with tithing and inactives, wow, what a shocker!! We already knew about the inactivity problems with the census reports from Mexico, Chile, Brazil and other places. Now, the tithing report is just a no brainer. These people can barely support their families let alone give money to Billion dollar LDS Inc. I'm amazed that the Church even bothers in places like Peru knowing that their return will be next to nothing. Then again, they really are investing nothing, the members are flipping the whole bill, so why not?
But hey, as Faust says, "they have to earn another temple." I wonder if he has asked for or bought any of their gold fillings yet? Scumbag cult leader!!
Here are his comments again for those that missed them from my other post this past week, regarding the gold fillings:
Now these were President James E Faust's comments during the groundbreaking of the Porto Alegre Brazil Temple:
Again, the article on this speech is also archived on the Deseret News Website.
He emphasized the need for Saints all over the world to begin to sacrifice for temple building. He recalled how, when the Sao Paulo Temple was being built, members in Argentina found ways to donate.
They gave the gold from their dental work to help pay on the temple, said President Faust. He explained that he had purchased some of that gold, for more than the market price, and has shown the gold fillings to various congregations to illustrate the nature of the sacrifice made by these members.
This sacrifice has been the hallmark of the success of members in the Latin American nations, he noted, indicating that the same principle of sacrifice is needed today, where members in one area can reach out to help those in other areas.
http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/cgi-b...
So, that he would say that the Saints in Peru have to "earn" their next temple should come as no surprise and is the truth. LDS Inc isn't going to build them a new temple if they don't have tithing flowing in. After all, tithing is really the only reason for the temples anyway.
Now, any question that LDS Inc is a cult. I think the following statement sums it up well and gave me flashbacks to my mission:
My feet are blistered, my back is killing me, and the constant noise feels like a drill to my head. But I´ve never been happier in my life.
http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/
| | | | It's Official - Mormons Will Serve Alcohol In Their New Malls
| | Posted Aug 27, 2005, at 06:03 PM. | FILED UNDER: MORMON TRUTH
| | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a | | ARCHIVED BY: Infymus | |
TOP | | I saw the headline this morning and couldn't believe what I was seeing. Damn hypocrites!! Then again, I'm glad they are gonna do it to show the world who they really are. This helps our cause greatly and reveals them for who they truly are. I knew that they were gonna do it. I predicted this about 2 months ago and they didn't let me down. They can't resist the money. Amazing that us normal folks have more revelation and are better at predicting the future than God's suposed Prophet, Seer and Revelator!!
They are now officially in the world and of the world. Welcome!! Here are some quotes from the Tribune article that explain how they are going to get around the fact that there will be alcohol being served in their mall. Then I will follow that up with some great quotes by current Apostles and the beloved Hinckster regarding the use of alcohol. This is mind blowing!! I would say that they are getting bolder and bolder in their actions. I guess if Hinckley can tell a woman to wear only one earring and she obeys, then serving alcohol in the name of God is an easy one!!
I started my journey 3-4 months ago but if I hadn't, I would have started it now after reading this article. First they buy the malls, now they serve alcohol. I even have a "TBM" relative that today said, "this is it for me." They are writing letters today to the First Presidency and their Bishop. They are furious!! Anyway, here are some of those quotes:
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2978212
The LDS Church has opened the door to alcohol sales at its downtown mall project. But forget Sunday shopping.
In an unexpected move for a church that eschews alcohol, LDS Church spokesman Dale Bills said Friday restaurants that will open as part of the redevelopment of Crossroads Plaza and ZCMI Center malls will be allowed to seek liquor licenses.
For residents who may have feared the church was on its way to "Vaticanize" downtown by buying up property like the malls, the alcohol decision is a show of tolerance, say observers.
It's also an economic decision: Vibrant downtowns need nightlife.(You see, it's all about the money, "an economic decision.")
The church says it wants to create a vibrant, 24-7 environment in its new project.
Because the church preaches against liquor consumption, it is distancing itself from the future restaurant operations. The church will sell land for the restaurants to an outside developer.
And there won't be any private clubs or bars opening on the blocks.
"A limited number of high-quality restaurant tenants who will operate on land not owned by the church may apply for licenses to serve alcoholic beverages in accordance with existing state regulations," Bills told The Salt Lake Tribune.
Friday was the first time the church has acknowledged the Sunday and alcohol arrangements. The announcement came first during an interview Mayor Rocky Anderson conducted with Bills and church architect Bill Williams on KCPW's "Midday Metro" radio program.
When Bills said it was the church's "goal" to allow restaurants to serve wine, Anderson responded: "That's going to be good news for a lot of people in this community."
So basically, these hypocritical scumbags are going to sell the land that each restaurant is on to the individual restaurant so that they can "officially say", it's not our land. They must think that people are real dumb asses and won't be able to figure this one out. Then again, most "TBM's" will probably say, "SEE, they are doing the right thing, selling the land so that it won't be Church property."
I guess it would be okay then if I sold my basement to a bar or a brothel. Yes, it would be in my house, but it wouldn't be my property. I'm sure my Bishop would be fine with that. Let's get real guys!! These GA's are more cunning than the Devil himself but wait, maybe it's the Devils Church after all and he guides them? Oh well, I'm just amazed at the latest current events regarding these hypocrites and I'm just glad that I got the hell out of there and don't have to defend their actions any longer. However, I can't wait to talk to my "TBM" friend who will defend the Church at any cost, that should be a fun and delightsome conversation. Isn't it wonderful?!!
Anyway, here are quotes by current GA's to back up my point of how the Church feels/felt about alcohol. **warning, you may laugh uncontrollably**:
Dallin H. Oaks, "Brother's Keeper," Ensign, Nov. 1986, 20
Wouldn't't it be wonderful if this same attitude of looking after the interests of others governed Latter-day Saints who are making a profit from the sale or promotion of alcoholic beverages? Consider the terrible effects of alcohol. Alcohol-related accidents are the leading cause of death of those under twenty-five. The physical, social, and financial effects of alcohol ruin marriages and family life. By dulling inhibitions, alcohol leads to untold numbers of crimes and moral transgressions. Alcohol is the number one addictive drug in our day.
The consumption of alcohol is increasing among youth. Targeting young audiences, advertisers portray beer and wine as joyful, socially desirable, and harmless. Producers are promoting new types of alcoholic beverages as competitors in the huge soft-drink market. Grocery and convenience stores and gas stations stock alcoholic beverages side by side with soda pop. Can Christians who are involved in this commerce be indifferent to the physical and moral effects of the alcohol from which they are making their profits? (Hey, that's a great question Mr. Oaks, now answer it for us.)
Russell M. Nelson, "Joy Cometh in the Morning," Ensign, Nov. 1986, 67
In 1833 the Prophet Joseph Smith received the Word of Wisdom by revelation. It includes these simple directives: We are not to drink alcohol, tea, or coffee, and we are not to use tobacco. Prophets in our generation and in this conference have told us also to avoid harmful drugs. Now medical science increasingly confirms the physical benefits of compliance with these teachings.
The damaging effects of alcohol are so widely known, additional comment is hardly needed. Harm inflicted by alcohol has been demonstrated, for example, by a study of the relationship between alcohol consumption among expectant mothers and the birth weight of their newborn infants. Findings published from the U. S. National Institutes of Health disclosed that consumption of one to two alcoholic drinks a day was associated with a substantially increased risk of producing a growth-retarded infant (see James L. Mills, et. al., "Maternal Alcohol consumption and Birth Weight," Journal of the American Medical Association, 12 Oct. 1984, pp. 1875-79).
Ezra Taft Benson, "Satan's Thrust-Youth," Ensign, Dec. 1971, 53
The Church must not compromise standards before popular demands. Surely tobacco, coffee, and alcohol users have been alienated by uncompromising standards as much as today's rocking miniskirts.
Using life as a laboratory, we can observe and study the lives of others as we might through a microscope. Observe that the man of God is a happy man. The hedonist, who proclaims "Do your thing," who lives for sinful, so-called pleasure, is never happy. Behind his mask of mock gaiety lurks the inevitable tragedy of eternal death. Haunted by its black shadow, he trades the useful, happy life for the bleak forgetfulness of drugs, alcohol, sex, and rock.
Russell M. Nelson, "Addiction or Freedom," Ensign, Nov. 1988,
Alcohol
There is mounting concern worldwide over the consumption of alcohol. The U.S. government estimates that 10.6 million adults are alcoholics and that one family in four is troubled by alcohol. It is a factor in half of all the nation's traffic deaths.
Last year, a tragic milestone was reached. More Americans had been killed from alcohol-related motor vehicle accidents (1,350,000) than had been killed in all the wars America has ever fought (1,156,000).
Dallin H. Oaks, "Be Not Deceived," Ensign, Nov. 2004, 43
And we must never do anything to drive away that Spirit. Specifically, we should avoid pornography, alcohol, tobacco and drugs, and always, always avoid violations of the law of chastity.
Four B's for Boys
Gordon B. Hinckley, "Four B's for Boys," Ensign, Nov. 1981, 40
...be so shortsighted as to indulge in the use of alcohol, tobacco, and drugs. It simply is not smart to do...
...and short-circuit your future? Beer and other forms of alcohol will do you no good. Their use will be expensive...
Look to the Future
Gordon B. Hinckley, "Look to the Future," Ensign, Nov. 1997, 67
...But there is so much more to do among them. Alcohol and drugs literally destroy many of them. We must do...
...the family in America and across the world. Drugs and alcohol are taking a terrible toll, which is not likely to...
That We May Touch Heaven
Thomas S. Monson, "That We May Touch Heaven," Ensign, Nov. 1990, 45
...mind and spirit. Hard drugs, wrongful use of prescription drugs, alcohol, coffee, tea, and tobacco products destroy your physical, mental, and...
...spiritual well-being. Any form of alcohol, including beer, is harmful to your spirit and your body...
Be Ye Clean"
Gordon B. Hinckley, "Be Ye Clean," Ensign, May 1996, 46
...things and has warned us against them. Stay away from alcohol, my brethren. Never get involved in a so-called beer...
...divine. It is totally wrong for you to partake of alcohol or drugs that are forbidden by the law. Be clean...
The Joy of Hope Fulfilled
M. Russell Ballard, "The Joy of Hope Fulfilled," Ensign, Nov. 1992, 31(He was talking about a man he knew, not himself....LOL) Wishful Thinking eh?
I was taken with the practice of free drugs, free love, free fun, and the rest of the world be damned. Beginning with my first drink of alcohol, I began to slowly deteriorate. After alcohol, other drugs were that much easier to use. In order to take drugs, you must become a good liar. You learn to do whatever it takes to conceal your behavior from others.
Gordon B. Hinckley, "Why We Do Some of the Things We Do," Ensign, Nov. 1999, 52
Avoid alcohol as you would a loathsome disease. Beer will do to you what hard liquor will do. Each contains alcohol in varying amounts.
Anyway, their are literally hundreds of references on the Churches website talking about how evil alcohol is but yet they will allow it in their mall but it won't be their property. Okay, so you aren't responsible. I wish I could have used that defense when I was a "TBM" to explain away any questionable behavior. To me, the Mormon Church has just lost complete credibility for their teachings on the Word of Wisdom and specifically alcohol. It may be a while before we hear anyone from the Church preach about the dangers of alcohol. Then again, they are so arrogant, Hinckley will probably say in the next conference, "We did the right thing selling that property..." After all, it was Brigham Young who opened the first bar in Salt Lake and Joseph had a bar in his front room until Emma went crazy and made him chose between her and the bar. Porter Rockwell was the bartender which I love.
http://www.realmormonhistory.com/smok...
So you see, there is a pretty strong history of the Church pretending to be against things that they really indulge in, especially alcohol and tobacco and this goes all the way back to good ol' Joseph Smith. I would love everyone's comments on this. I'm not saying that I'm against a restaurant serving alcohol, I talking specifically about the Mormon Church serving alcohol at their mall when you can't even get a Coke or Pepsi at BYU. Anyway, this turned out great for those of us that are no longer in the Church.
What a cult!! Do as we say, not as we do or you will be greatly punished but of course we only punish with love and concern!! Is it just me, or is this cult getting more evil by the day?!!
Samuel the Utahnite http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/
| | | | Does Mormon Tithing Grind the Face of the Poor?
| | Posted Aug 25, 2005, at 01:08 PM. | FILED UNDER: MORMON TRUTH
| | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a | | ARCHIVED BY: Infymus | |
TOP | | Elder Lynn Robbins delivered a speech on tithing in the April 2005 General Conference. The title of the speech, as it appeared in the May 2005 Ensign magazine was entitled: “Tithing—a Commandment Even for the Destitute”.
I. Introduction
Elder Robbins stated, “Among those who do not sacrifice there are two extremes: one is the rich, gluttonous man who won't and the other is the poor, destitute man who believes he can't. But how can you ask someone who is starving to eat less? Is there a level of poverty so low that sacrifice should not be expected or a family so destitute that paying tithing should cease to be required?”
But does Mormon scripture support the notion that the destitute must pay tithing?
No.
Is there any scripture that suggests the Elders can abuse the poor?
Yes.
From Isaiah 3:14-15.
“YHWH will enter into judgment with the elders of his people, And their leaders: "It is you who have eaten up the vineyard. THE SPOIL OF THE POOR IS IN YOUR HOUSES. What do you mean that you crush my people, And GRIND THE FACE OF THE POOR?" says the Lord, YHWH of Hosts.
II. Mormon Scripture
Mormon scripture states plainly that tithing is to be paid on any excess beyond a person’s needs.
Joseph Smith and Sydney Rigdon produced D&C; 119:4 (1838). It states:
“And after that, those who have been thus tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their INTEREST annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them FOREVER, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.” (Emphases added.)
Webster's 1828 Dictionary defines "INTEREST" as
"5. Any surplus advantage." (http://65.66.134.201/cgi-bin/webster/...)
Webster's defines "advantage", in pertinent part, as
"7. Interest; increase; overplus".
Interest refers to a surplus, or in antiquated English, an “overplus” .
Smith and Rigdon also produced the Joseph Smith Translation (JST) of the Bible. It is in Rigdon's handwriting.
“Wherefore Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him MORE THAN THAT WHICH HE HAD NEED.” JST Genesis 14:39. (Emphasis added.)
Therefore without doubt, tithing in Mormon scripture means "one-tenth of their surplus advantage annually", which means "more than that which they have need".
III. Official Mormon Policy
What about official Mormon Policy?
On March 19, 1970, the First Presidency sent the following letter to presidents of stakes and missions, bishops of wards, and presidents of branches in answer to the question,
“ What is a proper tithe?
“ For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their INTEREST annually, which is understood to mean income. NO ONE IS JUSTIFIED IN MAKING ANY OTHER STATEMENT THAN THIS. We feel that every member of the Church should be ENTITLED TO MAKE HIS OWN DECISION as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.”
The General Handbook of Instructions quotes from the March 19, 1970 letter from the First Presidency as its definition of what is tithed. Here is a portion of the General Handbook of Instructions from that section:
“The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this.’ ” (First Presidency letter, 19 Mar. 1970; see also D&C; 119:4).
Because the General Handbook of Instructions quotes the 1970 letter from the First Presidency, the 1970 letter remains the official written policy on tithing.
But even the First Presidency statement fails to define "INCOME". Hence, one must look to the scriptures for a definition. They state INTEREST income (D&C; 119:4), which means SURPLUS of OVERPLUS income (D&C; 119:5) MORE THAN THAT WHICH [THE TITHE PAYER] HAS NEED (Genesis 14:39, JST).
IV. Statements by General Authorities that Support “Surplus”
Apostle James Talmage published a brochure entitled “The Lord’s Tenth” It was misquoted by Apostle Jeffrey Holland in a speech he delivered in the October, 2001 General Conference.
Holland's lengthy quotation of Talmage is so riddled with ellipses and square brackets, one wonders what Talmage actually wrote.
I checked.
Holland's "quotation" is not what Talmage meant, particularly regarding the amount to be tithed. Talmage referred to surplus. Holland referred to ten percent. Could Holland's quotation of Talmage cause one to misunderstand Talmage? Perhaps.
The amount to be tithed is and remains one tenth of a person's increase after needs are met. (Genesis 14:39, Joseph Smith Translation, D&C; 119:3-5). The First Presidency letter dated March 19, 1970 states in part, " We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly." (As cited above.)
Talmage's writing supports current official policy and the two scriptures cited above, but does Holland's quotation of Talmage do the same?
Below is a full text, alternating-paragraph quotation of both Talmage and Holland.
I have highlighted differences with ALL CAPS, and I have set forth enumerated comments. Talmage's text comes from "The Lord's Tenth, Pamphlet, 1968, as cited by Holland.
(1)TALMAGE: "You have need of many things in this world-food, clothing, and shelter for your family AND YOURSELF, the common comforts of life, AND THE THINGS THAT SHALL BE CONDUCIVE TO REFINEMENT, TO DEVELOPMENT, TO RIGHTEOUS ENJOYMENT. YOU DESIRE MATERIAL POSSESSIONS TO USE FOR THE ASSISTANCE OF OTHERS AND THEREBY GAIN GREATER BLESSINGS FOR YOURSELF AND YOURS.
(1)HOLLAND: ‘You have need of many things in this world—food, clothing, and shelter for your family … , the common comforts of life. …
(1)COMMENT: Holland leaves the individual out: "YOURSELF", and the following needs: "THE THINGS THAT SHALL BE CONDUCIVE TO REFINEMENT, TO DEVELOPMENT, TO RIGHTEOUS ENJOYMENT". In harmony with the above-cited scriptures, Talmage taught these are legitimate needs. But lest Holland give a hint that tithing should be calculated after needs are met, he has dropped these lines. In other words, it appears the Church used to semi-officially (Talmage) clarify the tithing requirement based upon a recognition that personal and other legitimate needs were not to be tithed. Semi-officially (Holland), no more.
(2)TALMAGE: Now, you shall have the means of acquiring these things; but remember they are mine, and I require of you the payment of a rental upon that which I give into your hands. However, your life will not be one of uniform increase IN SUBSTANCE AND POSSESSIONS; YOU WILL HAVE YOUR LOSSES, AS WELL AS YOUR GAIN; YOU WILL HAVE YOUR PERIODS OF TROUBLE AS WELL AS YOUR TIMES OF PEACE. SOME YEARS WILL BE YEARS OF PLENTY UNTO YOU, AND OTHERS WILL BE YEARS OF SCARCITY.
(2)HOLLAND: You shall have the means of acquiring these things; but remember they are mine, and I require of you the payment of a rental upon that which I give into your hands. However, your life will not be one of uniform increase …
(2)COMMENT: Holland truncates the phrase "increase in substance and possessions" probably because it fleshes out the meaning of an increase, that tithing should be paid after a calculation of "surplus properties" (D&C; 119:5).
(3) TALMAGE: AND, NOW, instead of doing as mortal landlords do-require you to CONTRACT WITH THEM to pay in advance, whatever your fortunes or your prospects may be-you shall pay me NOT IN ADVANCE, BUT when you have received; and you shall pay me in accordance with what you receive. If it so be that in one year your income is abundant, then YOU CAN AFFORD TO PAY ME a little more; and if it be so that the next year is one of distress and your income is not what it was, then YOU SHALL PAY ME LESS; AND SHOULD IT BE THAT YOU ARE REDUCED TO THE UTMOST PENURY SO THAT YOU HAVE NOTHING COMING IN, YOU WILL PAY ME NOTHING."
(3) HOLLAND: [so] instead of doing as mortal landlords do—requir[ing] you to ... pay in advance, whatever your fortunes or … prospects may be—you shall pay me … [only] when you have received; and you shall pay me in accordance with what you receive. If it so be that in one year your income is abundant, then … [YOUR 10 PERCENT will be a] little more; and if it be so that the next year is one of distress and your income is not what it was, then … [YOUR 10 PERCENT will be] less. … [WHATEVER YOUR CIRCUMSTANCE, THE TITHE WILL BE FAIR.]’
(3)COMMENT:
FIRST, Holland deletes the phrase "not in advance" since that contradicts current declarations to "pay the Lord first" or even as Gordon B. Hinckley suggested to pay even in the face of disaster; the story of the woman who needed to pay her tuition, but paid tithing instead.
SECOND, Holland inserts "YOUR 10 PERCENT" where Talmage clearly did not say "ten percent". Rather, Talmage's statement is in harmony with the First Presidency letter dated March 19, 1970 which states in part, " We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly."
THIRD, Holland pulls the following "quotation" out of thin air: "whatever your circumstance, the tithe will be fair". The problem is his text in the Ensign makes that statement appear to be paraphrased from Talmage. It is not. And how can a tithe be fair for a destitute individual who is struggling to support themselves and their dependents?
FOURTH, Holland drops the phrase, "you shall pay me nothing." The reason is this would have destroyed impetus of the story he told of the destitute Mary Fielding Smith. Because, to quote Talmage, she was "reduced to the utmost penury so that you have nothing coming in". An anecdote like the Mary Fielding Smith story, even delivered by an apostle at General Conference, carries less authority than scripture, as cited above and less authority than a signed statement of the First Presidency, as cited above.
(4) TALMAGE: Have you ever found a landlord of earth who was willing to make that kind of a contract with you? When I consider the liberality of it all, and the consideration that my Lord has had for me, I feel in my heart that I could scarcely raise my countenance to his heaven above if I tried to defraud him out of that just rental.
(4) HOLLAND: “Have you ever found a landlord on earth who was willing to make that kind of [EQUITABLE] contract with you?” Elder Talmage asks. “When I consider the liberality of it all,” he says, “… I feel in my heart that I could scarcely raise my countenance to … Heaven … if I tried to defraud [GOD] out of that [WHICH IS RIGHTFULLY HIS].”
(4)COMMENT: Holland's insertion of "EQUITALE", "GOD", and "WHICH IS RIGHTFULLY HIS" may inspire awe and guilt. It also minimizes the thought that one might have an “indifferent” landlord (See Matthew 5:45).
Summary. Talmage meant "pay on your surplus". Did Holland mean "pay ten percent across the board, regardless of your income"?
IV. Back to Elder Robbins’ talk.
Robbins appeals to one’s sense of shame by equating all who are unwilling to pay tithing with Dicken’s most famous, but fictitious character, Scrooge. Robbins next tells the extreme story of the widow of Zarephath, and insists that the “Lord often teaches using extreme circumstances to illustrate a principle”.
But do these examples matter if they contradict Mormon scripture and official policy?
No. They are misleading.
Robbins also states that “[n]o bishop, no missionary should ever hesitate or lack the faith to teach the law of tithing to the poor. The sentiment of "They can't afford to" needs to be replaced with "They can't afford not to.”
Maybe the principle can be taught, but it cannot contradict Mormon scripture.
Robbins also uses the term “firstfruits” extensively to bolster the notion that the destitute should pay tithing. But this contradicts Mormon scripture and the previous teaching of Apostle Talmage, misquoted by Apostle Holland that “you shall pay me NOT IN ADVANCE” (Talmage as quoted above).
V. Conclusion
To give one one’s substance, whether one is rich, poor, or neither, is a sacrifice in fact, but what remains in Mormon scripture and official policy regarding tithing is that
the official interpretation of tithing remains “one-tenth of all their INTEREST annually”. “Interest” is a surplus (D&C; 119:4-5) of income “more than that which [one] has need.” (Genesis 14:39, JST.), and
“every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.” (March 19, 1970 letter from the First Presidency, and current official policy).
Peace.
Sarony
http://www.exmormon.org/boards/w-agor...
| | | | Tithing, Even The Destitute And Poor Must Pay!
| | Posted Aug 24, 2005, at 09:21 AM. | FILED UNDER: MORMON TRUTH
| | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a | | ARCHIVED BY: Infymus | |
TOP | | Give us your gold fillings, give us 1 out of every 10 of your geese eggs, give us your food money......because we don't want you to miss out on the wonderful blessings of tithing. God is just waiting to flip that switch that controls the windows of heaven!! He really wants to open them!! What a joke!!
Here are some amazing quotes that been shared before but I thought I'd share them again for those that haven't seen them. They rob from the poor in order to sustain the rich, namely, themselves in their lavish lifestyles and mansions. They don't need mansions in heaven because they already have them here, paid for by tithe payers of course!! These men have no shame whatsoever!!
These quotes are perfect examples of how these men work and the guilt they put on the members, specifically the poor people that can barely even provide for their Family.
These men should be arrested for their crimes against the poor and humanity in general. Here are some great quotes exposing them for what they are and for their need for greed. Hinckley goes to a very poor country like Panama, or Russia and only wants to talk about tithing. It is disgusting!!
Here were Hinckley's comments in Panama December 18, 2000:
The article on this speech is in the Deseret News archives if you want to read the whole thing.
PANAMA CITY, Panama - The day will come that there will be a temple in Panama, if members here prove worthy, President Gordon B. Hinckley said during a member meeting in Panama City Dec. 18.
"That means that you must live the gospel," President Hinckley told the some 5,000 gathered at a downtown convention center. "You must love and respect one another as husband and wife, and your children as fathers and mothers. It means that you must get along with people and do well in your daily work. It means that you must attend your meetings."
Tithing is an elementary element of gospel living, he said. It is a commandment based on faith. The prophet told the Panamanian people that he and Sister Marjorie Hinckley would soon be meeting with their own bishop for their annual tithing settlement.
"When we have settled with the bishop we'll be able to sleep better because we will know that we have met our obligation to the Lord; we have tried to be honest with Him," President Hinckley said. "Now, the Church doesn't need my money. The Church could get along without my money, but I can't get along without the blessing of the Lord."
The Lord honors those who are honest with Him - He has promised to open the windows of heaven and shower blessings upon the faithful, President Hinckley said.
The prophet told of a Taiwanese man who struggled with tithing after being baptized. The man's financial means were limited and he worried he would not be able to pay rent and buy food for his family if he paid a full tithe. But he followed his wife's earnest persuasions and agreed to pay tithing to their branch president. The next day, the man was unexpectedly given a raise at work.
"When he left the place where he worked, he counted out the money. It was the exact amount of the tithing. He went home and told his wife. They sat down and cried together. And ever since then, he has been faithful in this basic law," President Hinckley said.
President Hinckley spoke of paying his tithing as a young boy. It was only a few cents each year, but he would hand it to the bishop and wait for a receipt that was probably more valuable than his contribution amount.
"But the significant thing is that I had paid my tithing and declared it to be in full," he said. "Out of that habit established when I was a little boy has grown a habit that has gone on throughout my life."
President Hinckley expressed his love for the Panamanian people and admonished them to exercise faith.
"If you will pay your tithing and keep the other commandments, we will find a way to build a temple in Panama. But we can't do it unless you do your part. The temple will cost much, much, much more than you will pay in tithing, but that will come about as a gift of the Church, as a blessing from the Lord, because you have exercised the faith to keep that sacred law."
"Your faith, and my faith, gives us the power within ourselves to do that which God would have us do. The history of the Church is a history of faith," President Hinckley said.
That an everlasting covenant might be established.
Abraham's people were a select, chosen people; a people called by the Lord to walk in His paths and keep His commandments, President Hinckley said.
"And that's who you are. People of covenant, given a role that is renewed in this time, that 'the fullness of my gospel might be proclaimed by the weak and the simple unto the ends of the earth before kings and rulers.'"
"I hope there will be a time when I can come back and look into your faces and see a smile on those faces and have you say, 'We have tried and the Lord has blessed us.' "
http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/cgi-b...
Wow, I'll let you guys comment on what you think of those comments. It's just unbelievable!! I'm sure it isn't hard to pay tithing to the Church when they are the one giving you every penny you have. I hope his Bishop wasn't too hard on him!! He pretends to be like one of us? Please!! Hinckley is also being very dishonest about the whole blessings part by sharing that story about receiving "monetary" blessings.
Hinckley himself has said that the blessings that come from tithing may not be of a "monetary" nature, but rather a "spiritual" nature. Therefore, not tangible and hard to prove, right? That way, no one can complain that they weren't blessed when they paid their tithing. Maybe the blessings came in some unknown, magical, spiritual manner and they didn't even know it and never will.
Now these were President James E Faust's comments during the groundbreaking of the Porto Alegre Brazil Temple:
Again, the article on this speech is also archived on the Deseret News Website.
He emphasized the need for Saints all over the world to begin to sacrifice for temple building. He recalled how, when the Sao Paulo Temple was being built, members in Argentina found ways to donate.
They gave the gold from their dental work to help pay on the temple, said President Faust. He explained that he had purchased some of that gold, for more than the market price, and has shown the gold fillings to various congregations to illustrate the nature of the sacrifice made by these members.
This sacrifice has been the hallmark of the success of members in the Latin American nations, he noted, indicating that the same principle of sacrifice is needed today, where members in one area can reach out to help those in other areas.
http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/cgi-b...
What can I say?!! People selling their gold fillings? Has it really come to that? He takes the gold fillings to various congregations to illustrate the nature of the sacrifice made by these members? He is one sick SOB!! I wish he'd show them to me!! Poor people!! Damn Cult!!
Now, in the April 2001 General Conference, Earl C. Tingey, shared an example of just how truly desperate the Church is to get "something" from even the poorest of poor:
I was once teaching the law of tithing to a group of Church leaders in Africa. One brother said, "Elder Tingey, how can I pay tithing when I have no income?" I inquired and determined that he had a large family of seven or eight children and was unemployed. I asked how he fed his family. He said he had a small garden and raised geese. I asked, "What do the geese do?" He replied, "They lay eggs." I responded, "What if one morning you discovered 10 geese eggs in the nests of your geese?" A light flickered on in his soul. "I could take one egg and give it to my branch president," he answered. He understood, and he could become a full-tithe payer.
For the full talk: http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/di...
You see that? The Church is so poor, that they need some poor Families geese eggs!!
Now, let me share one more example from the Last General Conference, in April 2005 in a talk once again on tithing, with the perfect title of "Tithing-a Commandment Even for the Destitute." It was given by Elder Lynn G. Robbins Of the Seventy. Here are some great quotes:
"Among those who do not sacrifice there are two extremes: one is the rich, gluttonous man who won't and the other is the poor, destitute man who believes he can't. But how can you ask someone who is starving to eat less? Is there a level of poverty so low that sacrifice should not be expected or a family so destitute that paying tithing should cease to be required?
No bishop, no missionary should ever hesitate or lack the faith to teach the law of tithing to the poor. The sentiment of "They can't afford to" needs to be replaced with "They can't afford not to."
One of the first things a bishop must do to help the needy is ask them to pay their tithing. Like the widow, if a destitute family is faced with the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should pay their tithing. The bishop can help them with their food and other basic needs until they become self-reliant.
In October of 1998 Hurricane Mitch devastated many parts of Central America. President Gordon B. Hinckley was very concerned for the victims of this disaster, many of whom lost everything-food, clothing, and household goods. He visited the Saints in the cities of San Pedro Sula and Tegucigalpa, Honduras; and Managua, Nicaragua. And like the words of the loving prophet Elijah to a starving widow, this modern prophet's message in each city was similar-to sacrifice and be obedient to the law of tithing.
But how can you ask someone so destitute to sacrifice? President Hinckley knew that the food and clothing shipments they received would help them survive the crisis, but his concern and love for them went far beyond that. As important as humanitarian aid is, he knew that the most important assistance comes from God, not from man. The prophet wanted to help them unlock the windows of heaven as promised by the Lord in the book of Malachi (see Malachi 3:10; Mosiah 2:24).
President Hinckley taught them that if they would pay their tithing, they would always have food on their tables, they would always have clothing on their backs, and they would always have a roof over their heads."
For the full talk: http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/di...
Let's see, what was that again? "If a destitute family is faced with the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should pay their tithing." Is this guy for real? He then makes a bogus promise to them that they would always have food on their tables, clothing on their backs and a roof over their heads. Gee, I wonder what happened then for those that had been paying their tithing and didn't have a roof over their head and food on their table? So, what Hinckley's saying is that they will never ever be hit by a hurricane again but if they are, every house around them may blow down but they'll be fine if they pay their tithing. Their house will be left standing. Unbelievable!!
I guess the part where he says that they can basically cut a deal with the Bishop, I pay tithing, you feed me, only applies to places in the world where the Church welfare program exists, like the USA and Europe. It didn't exist in South America when I was there!! So basically, in those poor places, they will pay their tithing with no guarantee of nothing, so they starve to death to pay the Mormon Church their tithing!! What a tragedy!!
One more quick quote by Hinckley when he was in Moscow, Russia on September 10, 2002. This is also a real classic!!
Now my dear brothers and sisters, live the gospel. Live the Word of Wisdom. Pay your tithing. You may say, 'I can't afford to pay tithing.' I'd like to say that you cannot afford not to pay tithing. The Lord has made a wonderful promise, found in the Bible in the book of Malachi to those who pay their tithes. Unto those He will open the windows of heaven and pour down blessings that there shall not be room to contain them. Take the Lord at his word. The Church will go on whether you pay your tithing or not. It is sustained in this part of the world by funds that come from the United States for the most part. Your tithing may be ever so small, but you take the Lord at his word and pay your tithes and offerings, and God will bless you.
For the full talk: http://www.ldsmag.com/prophettour/gbh...
So, basically, the USA is supporting the Church there and the Church will go on whether they pay tithing or not, but PAY IT!! GOD WILL BLESS YOU!!
So in conclusion, give your gold fillings, your geese eggs, your food money, your bill money, your rent money, your gas money, your finger nail clippings, hell, just give us everything you have and the Lord will open up those "invisible windows" and pour out those "invisible spiritual blessings" upon you. So what if you end up homeless for not paying your bills and rent?!! It's worth it for Jesus' Church!!
What if in the meantime you and your entire Family starve to death? God will bless you all on the other side for your incredible sacrifice of giving all your money and ultimately your life to the rich men in Salt Lake. At least you died for the cause, right? You'll die doing what you love, giving your money to the Billion Dollar corporation of LDS Inc!!
After all, they have to buy their Billion dollar malls, build their World Trade Center, $300 million luxury resorts, have their limos, luxury cars, 1,000 + suits, 5 star hotels, multi-million dollar condos, exquisite cuisine and dining. I mean, come on, these men have a lifestyle to maintain!! So cough it up people, even the destitute, don't make them suffer, after all, they are only doing God's work as humble servants. Screw your Family and eating, what's more important here? Don't every question, Just do it!!
http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/
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