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Deconstructor is a well written blogger in the Ex-Mormon community. From his site:
This site is for anyone interested in knowing more about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Here you'll find a collection of thought-provoking writings that encourage you to look closer at church history, culture and lifestyle.
http://www.i4m.com/think/
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| Can the LDS Church today fairly be described as monolithic?
Some church apologists like to quote Hugh B. Brown's BYU speech from over 45 years ago as proof that the church wants diversity of thought.
Actually, Brown's statement sounds pretty good:
http://www.lds-mormon.com/brown2.shtml
Unfortunately, the church has completely rejected Brown's idea of free thinking. Just look at what living church leaders are telling the flock now:
"On this occasion I am not going to talk about the good or bad of Prohibition but rather of uncompromising loyalty to the Church."
"How grateful, my brethren, I feel, how profoundly grateful for the tremendous faith of so many Latter-day Saints who, when facing a major decision on which the Church has taken a stand, align themselves with that position. And I am especially grateful to be able to say that among those who are loyal are men and women of achievement, of accomplishment, of education, of influence, of strength-highly intelligent and capable individuals."
"Each of us has to face the matter-either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing."
- President Gordon B. Hinckley. "Loyalty," April Conference, 2003.
"For us, to 'believe all things' means to believe the doctrine of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ as well as the words of the Latterday prophets. It means to successfully erase our doubts and reservations. It means that in making spiritual commitments, we are prepared to hold nothing back. It means we are ready to consecrate our lives to the work of the kingdom."
"The more we believe, the easier faith-based obedience becomes. Hence the value of 'believing all things.'"
"We are instructed to be like children, who are willing to be taught and then to act without first demanding full knowledge."
"Some members are constantly evaluating the gospel by the standards of the world. They may think, 'That is not how I think the Lord would want it done,' or, 'Based on my understanding of the scriptures, the Church position should have been . . .'"
"Some Church members may have reservations because of a physical appetite they are not quite willing to surrender."
"Other common reservations are flagged by words such as 'yes, but . . .' when scriptures or prophets are quoted. Or we may hear, 'I am not going to let the Church make my decisions for me.'"
"Obedience is a fundamental law of the gospel. It is not only the demonstration of our faith but also the foundation of our faith. But the philosophical standard of the world holds that unquestioning obedience equals blind obedience, and blind obedience is mindless obedience. This is simply not true. Unquestioning obedience to the Lord indicates that a person has developed faith and trust in Him to the point where he or she considers all inspired instruction — whether it be recorded scripture or the words of modern prophets — to be worthy of obedience."
"One day there will be answers to all our questions, and they will be based on divine fairness and love. The Lord will not hold people accountable for factors over which they have no control."
"Let us believe all things. Let us have unquestioning faith in all of the doctrines and truths of the restored gospel."
- Elder Robert Oaks, "Believe All Things," Ensign, July 2005, page 30
(Also, the footnote to this article reads: "Helps for Family Home Evening: 1. Blindfold one family member. Have a parent guide him or her through a set of obstacles. Compare this activity to the doctrines presented in this article.")
"I know a 17-year-old who, just prior to the prophet’s talk, had pierced her ears a second time. She came home from the fireside, took off the second set of earrings, and simply said to her parents, “If President Hinckley says we should only wear one set of earrings, that’s good enough for me.”"
"Wearing two pair of earrings may or may not have eternal consequences for this young woman, but her willingness to obey the prophet will. And if she will obey him now, on something relatively simple, how much easier it will be to follow him when greater issues are at stake."
- Apostle M. Russell Ballard, “His Word Ye Shall Receive,” Ensign, May 2001, 65
"To lead a child - or anyone else - even inadvertently, away from faithfulness, away from loyalty and bedrock belief simply because we want to be clever or independent is license no parent nor any other person has ever been given. In matters of religion a skeptical mind is not a higher manifestation of virtue than is a believing heart, and analytical deconstruction in the field of, say, literary fiction can be just plain old-fashioned destruction when transferred to families yearning for faith at home. And such a deviation from the true course can be deceptively slow and subtle in its impact. As one observer said, "[If you raise the temperature of my] bath water . . . only 1 degree every 10 minutes, how [will I] know when to scream?"
- Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland, General Conference, Sunday April 6th 2003
And there are many more statements like these that the flock hears now:
http://www.i4m.com/think/leaders/mormon_loyalty.htm
So which is it? Today, does the Mormon Church in practice follow what Hugh B. Brown said, or has it embraced the monolithic teachings of its current leaders?
http://www.exmormon.org/boards/w-agor...
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| See here inspired words from Mormon Living Prophets (now dead):
"It is a fact worthy of note that the shortest lived nations of which we have record
have been monogamic. Rome...was a monogamic nation and the numerous evils attending that
system early laid the foundation for that ruin which eventually overtook her."
- Apostle George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 202
"Since the founding of the Roman empire monogamy has prevailed more extensively than
in times previous to that. The founders of that ancient empire were robbers and women
stealers, and made laws favoring monogamy in consequence of the scarcity of women among
them, and hence this monogamic system which now prevails throughout Christendom, and which
had been so fruitful a source of prostitution and whoredom throughout all the Christian
monogamic cities of the Old and New World, until rottenness and decay are at the root of
their institutions both national and religious."
- Prophet Brigham Young Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 128
"... the one-wife system not only degenerates the human family, both physically and
intellectually, but it is entirely incompatible with philosophical notions of immortality;
it is a lure to temptation, and has always proved a curse to a people."
- Prophet John Taylor, Millennial Star, Vol. 15, p. 227
"Monogamy, or restrictions by law to one wife, is no part of the economy of heaven
among men. Such a system was commenced by the founders of the Roman empire....Rome became
the mistress of the world, and introduced this order of monogamy wherever her sway was
acknowledged. Thus this monogamic order of marriage, so esteemed by modern Christians as a
holy sacrament and divine institution, is nothing but a system established by a set of
robbers.... Why do we believe in and practice polygamy? Because the Lord introduced it to
his servants in a revelation given to Joseph Smith, and the Lord's servants have always
practised it. 'And is that religion popular in heaven?' it is the only popular religion
there,..."
- Prophet Brigham Young, The Deseret News, August 6, 1862
"This law of monogamy, or the monogamic system, laid the foundation for prostitution
and the evils and diseases of the most revolting nature and character under which modern
Christendom groans,..."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, page 195
We've all heard today's Mormon leaders blaming the fall of the Roman empire and the
decline of civilization on Homosexuality. Here's just a sampling of Mormon Prophets making
this claim:
"This heinous homosexual sin is of the ages. Many cities and civilizations have
gone out of existence because of it. It was present in Israel’s wandering days,
tolerated by the Greeks, and found in the baths of corrupt Rome."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "President Kimball Speaks Out on Morality," LDS
New Era, Nov. 1980, Page 39
"Alternatives to the legal and loving marriage between a man and a woman are
helping to unravel the fabric of human society. I am sure this is pleasing to the devil.
The fabric I refer to is the family. These so-called alternative life-styles must not be
accepted as right, because they frustrate God’s commandment for a life-giving union
of male and female within a legal marriage as stated in Genesis. If practiced by all
adults, these life-styles would mean the end of the human family."
- Apostle James E. Faust, "Serving the Lord and Resisting the Devil,"
Liahona, Nov. 1995, Page 3.
But this is the SAME argument that Mormon Prophets have used against good-old heterosexual
monogomy!History will look back and correctly see today's Mormon prophets to be just
as ignorant, bigoted and self-serving as Mormon prophets of the 19th Century. These men
are not inspired representatives of God, but petty tyrants. And all those who follow them
are on the wrong side of history.
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon...
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| On another thread, I have listed just some of the countless official statements by the church that its leaders have the "constant companionship" of the Holy Ghost and "the power of discernment."
LDS Church leaders claim to have the same priesthood power as prophets of the Bible and Book of Mormon. Just as Jesus knew Judas would betray him and Peter would deny him, true apostles today should have that power. As the Book of Mormon says Ammon discerned the thoughts of King Lamoni and Nephi discerned who was guilty of murder, LDS prophets, seers and revelators say they carry the same priesthood power.
But if church leaders don't really have a divine power of discernment, is that reason enough to leave the church?
Without the power of discernment, how do church leaders really make callings, give blessings or give counsel to people? Why do they say what they do in General Conference, spend hundreds of millions of dollars on malls and direct the Lord's kingdom on Earth?
Especially at the very top of the church, isn't divine discernment critical for God's only true church?
Recently an LDS radio show host, Van Hale, declared publicly that top church leaders do not have the power of discernment - at least not enough to prevent them from being deceived by evildoers and protect them and the church from being harmed.
I happen to agree with Van Hale's position. That's one of the reasons I left the church. Yet others, like Van Hale, don't see this as a reason to question the church.
Do you think members were justified in leaving the church after the Mark Hoffman fiasco? Or should members just keep the faith even though their leaders have demonstrated they really don't have the power of discernment they say they have?
http://www.exmormon.org/boards/w-agor...
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| For TBMS Who Say The Church Doesn't Teach Leaders Have The Power Of Discernment
| | Posted Sep 28, 2005, at 08:50 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: DECONSTRUCTOR - RETHINKING MORMONISM | | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a | | ARCHIVED BY: Infymus |
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| Yeah, maybe I should just stop pointing out when TBMs publicly tell lies. But I find it so upsetting when TBMs deny church teachings.
Take for example Mr. Van Hale, who last Sunday on his radio program insisted that the church has never taught that church leaders have the power of discernment.
Hale's denials end up soothing the TBM audience when callers point out glaring inconsistencies in what church leaders say and do. In this case, a caller (FreeAtLast) pointed out the contrast between church claims that leaders have the power of discernment and their inability to detect Mark Hoffman's lethal dishonesty.
Hale brushed the caller off by saying repeatedly that the church has never taught that its priesthood leaders have the power of discernment or that they can detect deception or guilt in people.
A quick look at the church's official website reveals that Van Hale has once again lied publicly.
Here's just a sampling of the literally hundreds of referencesregarding what the church actually teaches:
"A bishop is also ordained a high priest so he can preside over all members in the ward (see D&C; 107:71–73; D&C; 68:15). A bishop is a judge in Israel (see D&C; 107:74) and interviews members for temple recommends, priesthood ordinations, and other needs. It is his right to have the gift of discernment."
- Official LDS Church "Gospel Principles," Unit Five: The Church of Jesus Christ, 14: Priesthood Organization, 85
"The gift of discernment enables a bishop or branch president to know truth, to understand the differences between good and evil, and even to know what is in a person’s heart. Because he has this gift, we can seek his counsel and he can tell us what the Lord would have us do to grow spiritually."
- Official LDS Church Manual "Duties and Blessings of the Priesthood", Part A, History and Organization of the Priesthood, 8: Duties of the Bishop and the Branch President, 57
"After enumerating various spiritual gifts, the Lord provides this counsel concerning your bishop or any other presiding priesthood leader: 'And unto the bishop of the church, and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church and to be elders unto the church, are to have it given unto them to discern all those gifts lest there shall be any among you professing and yet be not of God.' (D&C; 46:27.) It is abundantly clear that presiding priesthood leaders are given the gift of discernment."
- Elder Gene R. Cook, “Seek Out Your Spiritual Leader,” Ensign, May 1978, 64
"Discernment. At other times the Holy Ghost enhances our senses that we might discern those things that ordinarily would not be known to us, as did Ammon in the Book of Mormon, who discerned the thoughts of King Lamoni (see Alma 18:16–18)."
- Sister Reneé Roy Harding, “Guess Who,” Ensign, Aug. 1998, 70
"I give my testimony that the prophets of this day have the qualities of the prophets of old and the other prophets of this dispensation. Each of these prophets has humbly and prayerfully sought to know and follow God’s will in his personal ministry. We declare with soberness, and yet with the authority of God in us vested, we have a prophet today. The President of the Church, as a prophet, is God’s representative on earth and is appointed to lead His church. Christ is the head of his Church today, just as he was in ancient times. The Lord has said that this is 'the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased' (D&C; 1:30)."
- Apostle Robert D. Hales, "Hear the Prophet’s Voice and Obey," Ensign, May 1995, Page 15
"Countless are the devious ways of stealing. Fortunate indeed are they who, through righteous living and the gift of discernment, can clearly distinguish between honesty and dishonesty."
- Apostle Marion G. Romney, “A Glorious Promise,” Ensign, Jan. 1981, 2
"There is a power of discernment granted 'unto such as God shall appoint … to watch over [His] church.' To discern means 'to see.'”
"President Harold B. Lee told me once of a conversation he had with Elder Charles A. Callis of the Quorum of the Twelve. Brother Callis had remarked that the gift of discernment was an awesome burden to carry. To see clearly what is ahead and yet find members slow to respond or resistant to counsel or even rejecting the witness of the apostles and prophets brings deep sorrow."
"Recently President Hinckley reminded the Brethren that, while we are men called from the ordinary pursuits of life, there rests upon us a sacred ministry. And we take comfort in what the Lord said to the original Twelve: 'Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you.'"
"Each week we meet together in the temple. We open the meeting by kneeling in prayer, and we close with prayer. Every prayer is offered in the spirit of submission and obedience to Him who called us and whose servants and witnesses we are."
"We know that we hold the power of the priesthood 'in connection with all those who have received a dispensation at any time from the beginning of the creation.' We think of those who have preceded us in these sacred offices, and at times we feel their presence."
- Boyd K. Packer, “The Twelve Apostles,” October 1996 General Conference Address, also Ensign, Nov. 1996, and again in Ensign, Sept. 2005, page 16
"Would You Like the Power of Discernment? Would you like to have powers of discernment—the power to identify truth? If so, you must read the word of God, acknowledge God’s Goodness, ponder, and ask of God. Through doing this, Moroni testifies, “By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.” (Moro. 10:5.)"
"While I was a mission president in Texas, I was informed that a particular missionary had lost his testimony and wanted to go home. Some checking disclosed that doubts of the divinity of his call had beenplanted in the young man’s mind by an investigator. In an interview with the so-called investigator, I experienced special powers of discernment that enabled me to know that the man was a minister of another faith, posing as a college student and pretending to be an honest investigator of Mormonism. Confronted with the knowledge that had been revealed to me, he became confused and admitted his fraud. With the deceiver out of the way and the truth known, the missionary stayed and completed an honorable mission."
- Elder Carlos E. Asay, “The Companionship of the Holy Ghost,” Ensign, Apr. 1988, 15 AND “Courting the Spirit,” New Era, Aug. 1990, 33
"President Monson says softly and with some emotion. 'In my patriarchal blessing as a boy, I was promised that I would have the gift of discernment. I have to acknowledge that such a declaration has been abundantly fulfilled in my life.' Indeed, President Monson’s life—certainly his life as an Apostle and member of the First Presidency—seemsin a sense to be one long, extended chronicle of the promptings of the Holy Spirit, with the many inspirational and varied miracles which have resulted from his response to those promptings."
- Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland, “President Thomas S. Monson: Finishing the Course, Keeping the Faith,” Tambuli, Oct. 1994, 16–17
"I have found in these Brethren seated before you the fulfillment in their lives of the promise given to the Prophet Joseph Smith “...let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven. The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion." (D&C; 121:45-46.)"
"I have watched them armed with the Holy Ghost as a constant companion, taking on enormous work loads at an age when most men would be confined to rocking chairs, and engaging in strenuous travel schedules with great enthusiasm to be anxiously engaged in buildingthe kingdom of God. Then by observation, the realization has come to me that this great Spirit that blesses them in their activities is not a special gift to them alone, but is available to all mankind if they will but be partakers and earnestly seek it and be humbly guided by it."
"Isn’t this spirit a constant companion you need in your life?"
- Apostle L. Tom Perry, “Consider Your Ways,” Ensign, July 1973, 20
"On one occasion the Prophet Joseph Smith was invited to preach the gospel to a group of Native Americans. They could not understand English, and he could not speak their language, so he paid a special government agent to interpret his words. The Prophet spoke for a few minutes, and the agent then interpreted the Prophet’s message. When the people showed resentment and anger at the Prophet’s message, the Spirit revealed to him that the agent was telling lies in order to turn them against him. Joseph pushed the interpreter aside and then preached a sermon to them. They understood every word."
"What spiritual gifts did the Prophet Joseph Smith use during this incident? Discernment, revelation, gift of tongues, and teaching."
- Official LDS Doctrine Manual "Duties and Blessings of the Priesthood," Part B, Gospel Principles and Doctrines, 34: Spiritual Gifts, 281
"Remember, the Lord knows all things and will not be mocked. We are trying to help you. Never lie to try to obtain a call, a recommend, or a blessing from the Lord.”
"If you approach the matter as outlined above, the member has the responsibility to interview himself. The bishop or stake president has the right to the power of discernment. He will know whether or not there is something amiss that ought to be settled before a recommend is issued."
-Apostle N. Eldon Tanner, “The Blessing of Church Interviews,” Ensign, Nov. 1978, 40
"The branch president is the common judge of branch members. He interviews them to judge their worthiness for temple recommends, ordinations, ordinances, callings, and patriarchal blessings. He may counsel his branch members who seek spiritual guidance."
"To help the branch president in his responsibilities as common judge, the Lord promises him the gift of discernment. As he is worthy to receive it, this gift helps him know what is in a person’s heart."
- Official LDS Church "Branch Guidebook", Branch Presidency, 3
"The offices of bishop and branch president and counselors are sacred in this Church. The men who hold those offices are respected by the Lord, inspired by His Spirit, and given the powers of discernment and judgment necessary to their office. We honor and love them, and we show this by our consideration for them."
- Apostle Dallin H. Oaks, “Special Witness: ‘Bishop, Help!’ ” Friend, Apr. 2004, 19
"We read in this same source: “And unto the bishop of the church, and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church and to be elders untothe church, are to have it given unto them to discern all those gifts lest there shall be any among you professing and yet be not of God.” (D&C; 46:27; see also 1 Cor. 12:10.)"
"This power of discernment is essential if we are to distinguish between genuine spiritual gifts and the counterfeits Satan seeks to use to deceive men and women and thwart the work of God. The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “Nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the spirit of God.” (Teachings, p. 205.) He also taught that “no man nor sect of men without the regular constituted authorities, the Priesthood and discerning of spirits, can tell true from false spirits.”
- Apostle Dallin H. Oaks, “Spiritual Gifts,” Ensign, Sept. 1986, 68
"Satan has had great success with this gullible generation. As a consequence, literally hosts of people have been victimized by him and his angels. There is, however, an ample shield against the power of Lucifer and his hosts. This protection lies in the spirit of discernment through the gift of the Holy Ghost. This gift comes undeviatingly by personal revelation to those who strive to obey the commandments of the Lord and to follow the counsel of the living prophets."
- Apostle James E. Faust, “Serving the Lord and Resisting the Devil,” Ensign, Sept. 1995, 2
"The teacher will be in accord with the General Authorities as a group and with his local leaders, knowing they are guides to safety. He will have desires to follow and conform to their teachings and example in all their spiritual and temporal declarations, knowing the Lord gives them the gifts of discernment. (See D&C; 46:27.)"
- Elder Gene R. Cook, “Spiritual Guides for Teachers of Righteousness,” Ensign, May 1982, 25
"The Lord said, 'Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God' (Eph. 6:13). Spiritual armor not only protects against the many things that can knock us spiritually senseless, but also protects us physically and in many other ways. For instance, it can help us to have wise discernment in making all of the important decisions we have to make. We can also have special insights in choosing friends and associates."
- Apostle James E. Faust, “Keep Your Chin Strap Fastened,” New Era, Nov. 1981, 4
"Bishops and branch presidents are called to care for the spiritual well-being of the members of their Church units. One specific spiritual responsibility that bishops and branch presidents have is to be a common judge (see D&C; 107:74). As a common judge, the bishop or branch president conducts worthiness interviews, counsels members, and administers Church discipline. In order to help them in these duties, the Lord has promised bishops and branch presidents the gift of discernment (see D&C; 46:27)."
"There are countless devious ways of stealing. Fortunate indeed are they who, through righteous living and the gift of discernment, can clearly distinguish between honesty and dishonesty."
- Apostle Marion G. Romney, “A Glorious Promise,” Tambuli, July 1981, 1
The bottom line is, you're not crazy if you remember being taught in church that the brethren have special discerning powers. They are still teaching it! It's only Van Hale who is whacked.
Why does Van Hale keep telling such blatant lies on the air?
http://www.exmormon.org/boards/w-agor...
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| Here are some examples of a TBM (and radio talk show host) making excuses for Joseph Smith's polygamy. I've added some facts that show just how far off this TBM is in his claims.
Denial of Denial
Van Hale Public Statement, August 2005:
"I have never made any assertion of any sort that I had found no evidence that polygamy served to provide Joseph Smith with increased sexual opportunities."
Van Hale Public Statement, September 2004:
"In my forty years of looking very closely at polygamy, it's been a subject that has been of some interest to me, there's not a single instance where I have encountered what, uh, the speculations that have been presented, uh, far and wide throughout the history of the LDS faith about polygamy, that polygamy was about, uh, providing a promiscuous sexual uh, opportunity, uh, increase, uh, sexual opportunities to Joseph Smith and other polygamists."
Straw Man
Van Hale Public Statement, August 2005:
"Go back through LDS history and you look at the revelation in Section 132, look at the letter that Joseph Smith wrote to Nancy Rigdon on, explaining plural marriage. You look at all of the numerous sermons and articles and things that were written during the polygamy period of the 1900s and you simply cannot find anywhere in there in which any of the LDS perspective being presented by, ties into this or buys this idea, buys into this idea that polygamy was initiated originally for the purpose of satisfying anyone's sexual desires. That was not the purpose of it. And that's clear throughout and consistent throughout the literature."
There goes Hale again, using the "satisfying sexual desire" straw man argument. The issue here is SEXUAL ACCESS, not satisfying sexual desire. Of course Joseph Smith never said the purpose of polygamy was to satisfy his sexual desire. But it's very clear that Joseph Smith's polygamy was about provinding him greater SEXUAL ACCESS to women.
"And if Joseph Smith have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore he is justified for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified."
- Doctrine and Covenants 132:62-63
In Joseph Smith's polygamy letter to the young Nancy Rigdon, he again justifies why he propositioned her for marriage that obviously had a sexual dimension: "Even things which might be considered abominable to all who understand the order of heaven only in part, but which in reality were right because God gave and sanctioned by special revelation. ... Do my will in all things—who will listen to my voice and to the voice of my servant whom I have sent; for I delight in those who seek diligently to know my precepts, and abide by the law of my kingdom; for all things shall be made known unto them in mine own due time, and in the end they shall have joy."
- Official History of the Church, Vol. 5, p.134-136, http://www.i4m.com/think/history/smit...
Claiming There's No Strong Evidence
Van Hale Public Statement, Agust 2005:
"There has to be a reason why we don't have evidence, strong evidence, for Joseph Smith having sexual relations, sexual marriages with these plural wives. Why don't we have more evidence for that than what we have?"
The fact is, we do have strong evidence that Joseph Smith was having sexual realtions with his plural wives.
Smith's secretary William Clayton recorded a visit to his young wife Almera Johnson on May 16, 1843: "Prest. Joseph and I went to B[enjamin] F. Johnsons to sleep." Johnson himself later noted that on this visit Smith stayed with Almera "as man and wife" and "occupied the same room and bed with my sister, that the previous month he had occupied with the daughter of the late Bishop Partridge as his wife." Almera Johnson also confirmed her secret marriage to Joseph Smith: "I lived with the prophet Joseph as his wife and he visited me at the home of my brother Benjamin F."
- Zimmerman, "I Knew the Prophets", page 44. See also "The Origin of Plural Marriage, Joseph F. Smith, Jr., Deseret News Press, page 70-71.)
While in hiding, Joseph Smith wrote a letter which he addressed to the parents of another of his secret wives, inviting them to bring their daughter to visit him "just back of Brother Hyrums farm." He advised Brother Whitney to "come a little a head and knock at the south East corner of the house at the window." He assured them, especially Sarah Ann, that "it is the will of God that you should comfort me now." He stressed the need for care "to find out when Emma comes," but "when she is not here, there is the most perfect saftey." The prophet warned them to "burn this letter as soon as you read it" and "keep all locked up in your breasts." In closing he admonished, "I think Emma won't come to night if she dont, dont fail to come tonight."
- http://www.xmission.com/%7Eresearch/f...
Faithful Mormon Melissa Lott (Smith Willes) testified that she had been Joseph's wife "in very deed." (Affidavit of Melissa Willes, 3 Aug. 1893, Temple Lot case, 98, 105; Foster, Religion and Sexuality, 156.)
In a court affidavit, faithful Mormon Joseph Noble wrote that Joseph told him he had spent the night with Louisa Beaman. (Temple Lot Case, 427)
Emily D. Partridge (Smith Young) said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following her marriage to him and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him. (Temple Lot case (complete transcript), 364, 367, 384; see Foster, Religion and Sexuality, 15.)
In total, 13 faithful latter-day saint women who were married to Joseph Smith swore court affidavits that they had sexual relations with him!
Joseph Smith's personal secretary records that on May 22nd, 1843, Smith's first wife Emma found Joseph and Eliza Partridge secluded in an upstairs bedroom at the Smith home. Emma was devastated.
William Clayton's journal entry for 23 May (see Smith, 105-106)
See more strong evidence here:
http://www.i4m.com/think/history/jose...
Primary reason was there weren't enough righteous men
Van Hale Statement, August 2005:
"But basically, the reason, the primary reason given for the institution of plural marriage, and this, we find this advocated in many, many places. I could present quite a number of references on this but the principle reason was to provide righteous women the opportunity to have a marriage relationship and to have children and a family, be married to a righteous man. Now I have never advocated the idea that the imbalance of men and women was the reason for plural marriage in just, in that sense, but the imbalance of righteous women and righteous, wanting to be married to and have children with a righteous man, that imbalance is what is uh presented uh throughout the history of uh plural marriage as the basic reason."
Although even Hale's reason for polygamy includes sexual access, it still flies in the face of what the Lord, through His first prophets, gave as the primary reason for polygamy:
Brigham Young declared that "This is the reason why the doctrine of plurality of wives was revealed, that the noble spirits which are waiting for tabernacles might be brought forth." (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 197.)
Joseph Smith's First Revelation on Polygamy from 1831:
Prophesying to a group of all married men, Joseph Smith speaking for the Lord revealed: "For it is my will, that in time, ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity may become white, delightsome and Just, for even now their females are more virtuous than the gentiles."
- Prophet Joseph Smith, The Joseph Smith Revelations Text and Commentary, p. 374-376, http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/i...
In the Book of Mormon, the Lord gives one reason only for allowing polygamy. Jacob 2: 24-30: "Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none... For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things."
Again, D&C; 132 gives only one reason for Joseph Smith's polygamy, "for they are given unto him (Joseph Smith) to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified." Doctrine and Covenants 132:63
Nowhere in scripture does the Lord say polygamy is about providing righteous women with already-married righteous husbands. Van Hale's assertion is completely absurd. It's apologetics at its worst because it has no basis in the Lord's revelations, which clearly state that the primary reason for polygamy is providing certain men sexual acccess to women.
TBM's Reason for Polygamy Doesn't Include Joseph Smith
Van Hale, August 2005:
"So, yes, of course there was a sexual element intended in the ideal plural marriages. The ideal plural marriages were marriages wherein a woman who wanted to have, be married to a righteous man would be married as a plural wife to a righteous priesthood holder and she would have children by that man and that was because there were not enough righteous priesthood holders for the number of righteous women who wanted to have husbands and families with a righteous man."
This claim simply does not apply to Joseph Smith's behavior. Not only did he marry other righteous men's wives, he also married teenagers that could have married righteous men. Neither did Joseph Smith provide for his plural wives. As the historical record shows, these secret marriages provided little more than sexual rondevous.
Joseph Smith also married his own foster daughters. Couldn't they have found righteous husbands besides Joseph Smith?
Van Hale's primary reason for polygamy is nowhere in the scriptural revelation commanding Joseph Smith to take virgins "a hundred fold" in order to bear his children in this life. So what repreresents a more accurate reason for Joseph Smith's polygamy, Van Hale or D&C; 132?
For those who think this is a "misrepresentation" of Van Hale's statements, you can both listen to and read Van Hale's complete statements for yourself:
http://www.i4m.com/think/van_hale2.ht...
Scroll down to the bottom and click on the link for August 21st, 2005.
http://www.exmormon.org/boards/w-agor...
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| On another thread, someone said:
[Oral sex] is not officially banned anymore.
In the 80's he First Presidency sent a notice to local leadership advising them that oral sex was dirty and should not be practiced.
The membership found out about this, they voiced their concern, and SURPRISE SURPRISE! God changed his mind. Oral wasn't endorsed...but it wasn't shun-worthy either.
Actually, TBMs e-mail me from time to time with this same idea. I've asked them to produce something in writing from the prophet or the church leadership that oral sex is now okay. Nobody has come up with anything yet.
I know there are some faithful LDS that practice oral sex and think it's okay, or someone their own private matter. (I wonder why they don't extend that belief to their checkbook and dinner menu!)
But there are still many others who remember the prophet's open condemnation of oral sex and that it keeps you unworthy of the temple (and therefore the Celestial Kingdom).
This is a hot topic for members of the church. My web page outlining the church's position on oral sex is the most popular page on my site - even more popular than my South Park stuff.
http://www.i4m.com/think/sexuality/mo...
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| There is more evidence Joseph Smith had sex with his wives than exists he saw God and Jesus.
Here's why I think Joseph Smith had sex with his wives:
1. The only two recorded Joseph Smith revelations on polygamy are commandments to have children.
2. Making babies with polygamous wives is the only reason "The Lord" gives for polygamy.
3. The Book of Mormon says the only reason the Lord would permit polygamy would be to have children.
4. Joseph Smith's own son tried to exonerate his father from the charge of having sex with his plural wives. After speaking to many of them personally, he accepted that most of the relationships were sexual.
5. Over a dozen faithful LDS women testified that their marriages to Joseph Smith included sex.
6. Close relatives of Smith's wives testified that he spent the night in the same bed with them.
7. Everyone Joseph Smith taught his law of Celestial Marriage to understood it meant having sex, and did so.
8. Other cult leaders (Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc..) claim to receive similar "revelations" to D&C; 132 that justify them having sex with multiple women (and eventually teen girls).
In comparison, the First Vision story has little of the above evidence to support it. So why do Mormons believe the First Vision but refuse to accept the fact that Joseph Smith obeyed The Lord's "commandment" in D&C; 132 and had sex with his wives?
Get the facts here: http://www.i4m.com/think/polygamy/
Listen to an ardent Mormon insist publicly that Joseph Smith's polygamy had nothing to do with sexual access to women:
http://www.i4m.com/think/van_hale2.ht...
Is his argument credible?
http://www.exmormon.org/boards/w-agor...
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| LDS Church Leaders Call For Cult-Like "Unquestioned Obedience"
| | Posted Jun 25, 2005, at 09:38 AM [MST]. | | FILED UNDER: DECONSTRUCTOR - RETHINKING MORMONISM | | ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a | | ARCHIVED BY: Infymus |
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| Is the church getting more cultish or mainstream?
As someone already mentioned here, the new Engisn Magazine has this
latest example of Mormon cultspeak.
Excerpts from "Beleive All Things" by Elder Robert Oaks:
"For us, to
'believe all things' means to believe the doctrine of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ as well as the words of the
Latterday prophets. It means to successfully erase our doubts and reservations. It means that in making spiritual
commitments, we are prepared to hold nothing back. It means we are ready to consecrate our lives to the work of the
kingdom."
"The more we believe, the easier faith-based obedience becomes. Hence the value of 'believing all
things.'"
"We are instructed to be like children, who are willing to be taught and then to act without first
demanding full knowledge."
"Some members are constantly evaluating the gospel by the standards of the world. They may
think, 'That is not how I think the Lord would want it done,' or, 'Based on my understanding of the scriptures, the Church
position should have been . . .'”
"Some Church members may have reservations because of a physical appetite they
are not quite willing to surrender."
"Other common reservations are flagged by words such as 'yes, but . . .' when
scriptures or prophets are quoted. Or we may hear, 'I am not going to let the Church make my decisions for me...'”
"Obedience is a fundamental law of the gospel. It is not only the demonstration of our faith but also the foundation of
our faith. But the philosophical standard of the world holds that unquestioning obedience equals blind obedience, and blind
obedience is mindless obedience. This is simply not true. Unquestioning obedience to the Lord indicates that a person has
developed faith and trust in Him to the point where he or she considers all inspired instruction — whether it be recorded
scripture or the words of modern prophets — to be worthy of obedience."
"One day there will be answers to all our
questions, and they will be based on divine fairness and love. The Lord will not hold people accountable for factors over
which they have no control."
"Let us believe all things. Let us have unquestioning faith in all of the
doctrines and truths of the restored gospel."
"Helps for Family Home Evening: 1. Blindfold one family member. Have
a parent guide him or her through a set of obstacles. Compare this activity to the doctrines presented in this article."
- Elder Robert Oaks, Believe All Things," July 05 Ensign, page 30, http://lds.org/churchmagazines/7-2005-Ensign/Jul2005Ensign.pdf
Those words echo the recent
teachings of other Mormon Church leaders:
"I know a 17-year-old who, just prior to the prophet’s talk, had pierced her
ears a second time. She came home from the fireside, took off the second set of earrings, and simply said to her parents, 'If
President Hinckley says we should only wear one set of earrings, that’s good enough for me.'"
"Wearing two pair
of earrings may or may not have eternal consequences for this young woman, but her willingness to obey the prophet will. And
if she will obey him now, on something relatively simple, how much easier it will be to follow him when greater issues are at
stake."
- Apostle M. Russell Ballard, “His Word Ye Shall Receive,” Ensign, May 2001, 65
"But no child
in this Church should be left with uncertainty about his or her parents' devotion to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Restoration of
His Church, and the reality of living prophets and apostles who, now as in earlier days, lead that Church according to 'the will
of the Lord, . . . the mind of the Lord, . . . the word of the Lord, . . . and the power of God unto salvation.' In such basic
matters of faith, prophets do not apologize for requesting unity, indeed conformity, in the eloquent sense that the Prophet
Joseph Smith used that latter word. In any case, as Elder Neal Maxwell once said to me in a hallway conversation, 'There didn't
seem to be any problem with conformity the day the Red Sea opened.'"
- Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland, General Conference,
Sunday April 6th 2003
"The book of Revelation declares: 'I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I
would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth'
(Revelation 3:15-16)."
"I make you a promise, my dear brethren, that while I am serving in my present responsibility
I will never consent to nor advocate any policy, any program, any doctrine which will be otherwise than beneficial to the
membership of this, the Lord's Church."
"This is His work. He established it. He has revealed its doctrine. He has
outlined its practices. He created its government. It is His work and His kingdom, and He has said, 'They who are not for me
are against me' (2 Nephi 10:16)."
"Each of us has to face the matter-either the Church is true, or it is a
fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing."
- President Gordon B.
Hinckley. "Loyalty," April Conference, 2003.
See even more cult-like quotes on obedience here:
http://www.i4m.com/think/leaders/mormon_loyalty.htm
So is the church getting more cultish or more
mainstream?
Click Here For Original Link Or Thread.
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| On another thread, Randy Sampson mentioned that his Stake President told his TBM wife that her earrings were unacceptable.
This is happening all over the church. TBMs write me, insisting that they are the most free people on earth and the
church doesn't dictate or coerce behavior. Talk about denial:
"Latter-day prophets strongly discourage the piercing
of the body except for medical purposes. If girls or woman desire to have their ears pierced, they are encouraged to wear
only one pair of modest earrings. Those who choose to disregard this counsel show a lack of respect for themselves and for
God. They will someday regret their decisions."
- Widely-circulated LDS Pamphlet, "True to The Faith, a gospel
reference."
Based on the above church publication alone, local church leaders are telling women to take off all
but one set of earrings. They are telling the girls not to pierce them at all.
This war on earrings is coming from the
president ofthe church, who explains openly why Mormons should conform:
"I submit that it is an uncomely thing, and
yet a common thing, to see young men with ears pierced for earrings, not for one pair only, but for several. They have no
respect for their appearance. Do they think it clever or attractive to so adorn themselves?"
"I submit it is
not adornment. It is making ugly that which was attractive. Not only are ears pierced, but other parts of the body as well,
even the tongue. It is absurd."
"We—the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve—have taken the
position, and I quote, that “the Church discourages tattoos. It also discourages the piercing of the body for other
than medical purposes, although it takes no position on the minimal piercing of the ears by women for one pair of earrings.”"
- Gordon B. Hinckley, “Your Greatest Challenge, Mother,” Ensign, Nov. 2000, 97
"Likewise the piercing of the
body for multiple rings in the ears, in the nose, even in the tongue. Can they possibly think that is beautiful? It is a
passing fancy, but its effects can be permanent. Some have gone to such extremes that the ring had to be removed by surgery. The
First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve have declared that we discourage tattoos and also “the piercing of the body for
other than medical purposes.” We do not, however, take any position “on the minimal piercing of the ears by women for one pair of
earrings”—one pair only."
- Gordon B. Hinckley, “Great Shall Be the Peace of Thy Children,” Ensign, Nov. 2000,
50
"May I mention earrings and rings placed in other parts of the body. These are not manly. They are not
attractive. You young men look better without them, and I believe you will feel better without them. As for the young
women, you do not need to drape rings up and down your ears. One modest pair of earrings is sufficient."
- Text of a
talk given to youth and young single adults on 12 November 2000 at the Conference Center in Salt Lake City and broadcast by
satellite throughout the Church.
Whether you personally don't like earrings, is it the business of the Church to
shame people into going with its leader's grooming preferences?
President Hinckley isn't shy about telling married
couples that oral sex is off-limits either:
http://www.i4m.com/think/sexuality/mormon_oral_sex.htm
What personal boundary does the church
respect?
Click Here For Original Link Or Thread.
|
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| Let's hope Van Hale and other apologists who don't agree with the church are paying attention. Van Hale says the Book of Mormon
is "divine fiction" while church leaders testify that it is a historical record. (See: http://www.i4m.com/think/Intro/book_of_mormon.htm
)
Attention so-called "liberal" or "intellectual" Mormons: the Church doesn't want you!
"There are those in
the Church who speak of themselves as liberals who, as one of our former presidents has said, “read by the lamp of their own
conceit.” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine [Deseret Book Co., 1939], p. 373.) One time I asked one of our Church educational
leaders how he would define a liberal in the Church. He answered in one sentence: “A liberal in the Church is merely one who
does not have a testimony.”
"Dr. John A. Widtsoe, former member of the Quorum of the Twelve and an eminent
educator, made a statement relative to this word liberal as it applied to those in the Church. This is what he said: 'The
self-called liberal [in the Church] is usually one who has broken with the fundamental principles or guiding philosophy of the
group to which he belongs. … He claims membership in an organization but does not believe in its basic concepts; and sets out
to reform it by changing its foundations.'"
“It is folly to speak of a liberal religion, if that religion claims
that it rests upon unchanging truth.”
"And then Dr. Widtsoe concludes his statement with this: “It is well to
beware of people who go about proclaiming that they are or their churches are liberal. The probabilities are that the structure
of their faith is built on sand and will not withstand the storms of truth.” (“Evidences and Reconciliations,” Improvement Era,
vol. 44 [1941], p. 609.)"
- President Harold B. Lee, General Conference Address “The Iron Rod,” Ensign, June 1971, page
5
"“And the most diabolical deceit of this infamy is that it denies evil to be an absolute. Our religion is one
of absolutes and cannot be rationalized into a relativistic philosophy of the ‘liberal Mormons.’ We cannot safely rationalize
away righteousness."
- Apostle Ezra Taft Benson quoting Elder Richard Nibley, “Satan’s Thrust—Youth,” Ensign, Dec. 1971,
page 53
"We can have a certain testimony that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and Redeemer of mankind, and
that Joseph Smith was a prophet commissioned to restore the Church in our day and time without having a complete understanding of
all gospel principles. But when you pick up a stick you pick up both ends. And so it is with the gospel. As members of the
Church we need to accept all of it."
- Elder James E. Faust, October General Conference 2003, Saturday Morning
Session
"Jacob further enlightens us with the following: “O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and
the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel
of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them
not. And they shall perish.” (2 Ne. 9:28.) Jacob then clarifies so we may all understand that learning under the proper
circumstances has an important place in our lives. He explains, “But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of
God.” (2 Ne. 9:29.)"
"There are the so-called learned people who have let their intellect undermine their spiritual
moorings and who would also attempt to lead the faithful away from those who are appointed by the Lord to lead. There are
those who feel that our leaders are out of touch with the realities of the day. They would attempt to lead members by
substituting their own knowledge for the revelations from God to His prophets. And unfortunately there are those who would so
follow. Christ warned, “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”
(Matt. 7:15.)"
- Elder Richard C. Edgley, “Keep the Faith,” Ensign, May 1993, page 11, also LDS Church News, February 10,
1996
"Brethren, the Church is true. Those who lead it have only one desire, and that is to do the will of the
Lord. They seek his direction in all things. There is not a decision of significance affecting the Church and its people that is
made without prayerful consideration, going to the fount of all wisdom for direction. Follow the leadership of the Church.
God will not let his work be led astray. Brethren, if we live worthy of his inspiration, there will never be doubt in
our minds concerning the truth of this work and the great mission of this kingdom."
- President Gordon B. Hinckley,
“Be Not Deceived,” Ensign, Nov. 1983, page 44
"I knew a so-called intellectual who said the Church was trapped
by its history. My response was that without that history we have nothing."
- President Gordon B. Hinckley, “The
Marvelous Foundation of Our Faith,” Ensign, Nov. 2002, 78
"This is His work. He established it. He has revealed
its doctrine. He has outlined its practices. He created its government. It is His work and His kingdom, and He has said, "They
who are not for me are against me" (2 Nephi 10:16)."
How grateful, my brethren, I feel, how profoundly grateful
for the tremendous faith of so many Latter-day Saints who, when facing a major decision on which the Church has taken a stand,
align themselves with that position. And I am especially grateful to be able to say that among those who are loyal are men
and women of achievement, of accomplishment, of education, of influence, of strength—highly intelligent and capable
individuals."
"Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle
ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing."
- President Gordon B. Hinckley. "Loyalty," April
Conference, 2003.
"But no child in this Church should be left with uncertainty about his or her parents’ devotion
to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Restoration of His Church, and the reality of living prophets and apostles who, now as in earlier
days, lead that Church according to “the will of the Lord, . . . the mind of the Lord, . . . the word of the Lord, . . . and the
power of God unto salvation.” In such basic matters of faith, prophets do not apologize for requesting unity, indeed
conformity, in the eloquent sense that the Prophet Joseph Smith used that latter word. In any case, as Elder Neal Maxwell
once said to me in a hallway conversation, “There didn’t seem to be any problem with conformity the day the Red Sea
opened.”
"What a classic example of the warning Elder Richard L. Evans once gave. Said he: “Sometimes some
parents mistakenly feel that they can relax a little as to conduct and conformity or take perhaps a so called liberal view of
basic and fundamental things—thinking that a little laxness or indulgence won’t matter—or they may fail to teach or to attend
Church, or may voice critical views. Some parents . . . seem to feel that they can ease up a little on the fundamentals
without affecting their family or their family’s future. But,” he observed, “if a parent goes a little off course, the children
are likely to exceed the parent’s example.”
"To lead a child (or anyone else!), even inadvertently, away from
faithfulness, away from loyalty and bedrock belief simply because we want to be clever or independent is license no parent nor
any other person has ever been given. In matters of religion a skeptical mind is not a higher manifestation of virtue than is
a believing heart, and analytical deconstruction in the field of, say, literary fiction can be just plain old-fashioned
destruction when transferred to families yearning for faith at home. And such a deviation from the true course can be deceptively
slow and subtle in its impact. As one observer said, “[If you raise the temperature of my] bath water . . . only 1 degree every
10 minutes, how [will I] know when to scream?”
- Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland, General Conference, Sunday Arpil 6th
2003
Credits: Deconstructor
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