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Containing 3,529 Articles Spanning 239 Topics Ex-Mormon News, Stories And Recovery Online Since January 1, 2005 |
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| I received the following Email Message from Susan over on the Ex-Mormon Recovery site this morning. Regardless, I think I will increase my efforts at culling the best of the best articles by 100%.
From: exmolight@aol.com [mailto:exmolight@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 12:06 PM To: infymus@infymus.com Subject: ****DO NOT COPY POSTS FROM RFM Hi, you do NOT have permission to copy posts from ExMormon.Org. Please stop immediately and remove all copied posts you now have up. As is stated in our guidelines: All information, posts, links, stories, etc. found on this site are the express copyright of the owner and may not be used in any manner without the owners express permission. Thank you, Susan I/S My reply to Susan and Eric: Sorry Susan, not going to happen. I will continue to cull posts from the entire ex-Mormon world. If you want your information private then you will make your entire website including forums private. You haven't a legal leg to stand on considering that Google reads your entire site every day and archives them regardless. I've been over this with Eric in the past. Whether you like it or not, I am providing a service to the ex-Mormon recovery world. I cull the best of the posts from various recovery boards, blog sites and more and post and archive them. I purposefully avoid posting anything of a personal nature such as divorce, family matters and other personal messages. I always give a FULL link back to where the message or article or link originated so people can continue participating in the thread ON YOUR BOARDS. I have received emails from Bob McCue and Tal Bachman (and others) regarding culled posts and have received an OK from them. In the last eight months of being online I have only had ONE person ask that their posts be removed - and that was in January of 2005. In January I had 18 unique visits to my site. Last month I had 171,063 unique visits. I have had dozens of emails thanking me personally for the information that I provide. My site continues to grow and will continue to grow. No, I'm sorry. I will not stop. If you want to make ex-Mormon Recovery private and force people to log in to see any portion of your site, then you will have a case. You and Eric are like a couple of children yelling out "MINE!" and it is too bad. A wealth of information and you just want to see it posted and disappear after a couple days. As of 7:00AM on Monday Sept. 12, 2005 I have been banned and my [posting] access removed from Ex-Mormon forums. Therefore, I will never write another message on ex-Mormon recovery forums - and I have been a positive writer there for over two years. I have been examining your claims of "Express Copyright". I spoke with my attorney this morning and According to the US Copyright Act (title 17, U.S. Code), articles posted on Ex-Mormon Recovery Boards cannot be considered copyright unless specifically copyrighted by the individual that has composed the article including the date and real name. Articles posted on the Ex-Mormon Recovery Boards cannot be listed as "publications", unless specifically detailed as such. While no publication or registration or other "action" is required in the Copyright Office to secure a copyright, each work MUST be labeled as COPYRIGHT by the individual who writes a publication. Therefore, you must tell every person who writes a message on your forums that they MUST place a copyright with their full name and date of copyright at the top or bottom of the message. This of course would expose half of your anonymous posters and would expose the other half of registered users. Susan, as I stated before, you do not have a legal leg to stand on when it comes to copyrighted material posted by anonymous users and aliased users. Using a blanket statement on your website copyrighting all material will not stand up in court. As stated above, EACH person must copyright their own personal work by stating so in each message the write - using the current date and their real name. Many of the posts on Ex-Mormon Recovery Forums cull their information from LDS Books and other websites without regard to Section 107 of the 1976 "Fair Use" Copyright Act - pulling more information from those copyrighted works than is allowable by law. Web search portals such as Google search and archive your entire site on a weekly basis. You can find complete "cached" articles on Google and go back several years. It would be interesting to read the response from Google when you demand they remove any and all Ex-Mormon Recovery Forums Copyrighted Material. Even if you did manage to find and secure (by means of filing a copyright notice), regardless, I will always be able to pull posts off of Ex-Mormon Recovery and post them on The Mormon Curtain by means of the "Fair Use," which is given a statutory basis in section 107 of the 1976 Copyright Act. Until every user copyrights their work with their full name and date, none of the articles posted by registered and unregistered users of your site are considered copyrighted. Personally I find your attitude on the matter selfish. Your website archives less than 5% of the material posted. There is a wealth of information to aid Mormons who are working their way out of the Corporation and information to help Non-Mormons avoid joining Mormonism. However, your attitude I have noticed on your boards has always been about YOU. Posts that I have culled from Ex-Mormon Recovery Boards have *ALWAYS* included a complete URL linking the article back on your website. Readers can then participate in the ongoing discussion of the article originally posted. This increases traffic to your site and brings more readership to you, yet you are the one demanding that it stop. That, I find, is quite selfish. Cheers. This publication is copyrighted (c) 2005 by Michael S. Hoenie on September 12, 2005. No part may be copied or reproduced without the express permission of the author except where permissible by law in section 107 of the 1976 Copyright Act. UPDATE: October 19, 2005 - My access to ExMormon Recovery has been re-instated however all of my posts are heavily moderated. Any mention of this site, the Mormon Curtain causes the post to be deleted. Susan and Eric of Ex-Mormon Recovery do not want anyone on that site knowing about this site. Typical selfish behavior. |
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| My relationship with Susan and Eric on RFM has been shaky. Most of my posts on RFM are deleted. Sometimes my posts are able to get through but by the time Susan validates them, they end up on page five. I recently enquired of Susan to either stop moderating me or tell me to leave. Susan accused me of asking nicely and then spitting in her face. I get the picture - I will no longer be posting on RFM as Infymus, as I should have known better by now anyway.
Susan and Eric are extremely upset with me for taking posts off of RFM and placing them here on the MC. Eric does not understand my motives and has questioned them. Susan considers all of those posts copyrighted by her even though she has no power to copyright them. Both think that I am using those posts to boost my presence in the Ex-Mormon world and perhaps even think that I'm using the posts to bolster my position, or increase my popularity, or to expose Ex-Mormons, or whatever conspiracy theories they have concocted for themselves. None of this is true. Absolutely none of this is true. To punish me, Susan and Eric heavily moderate my posts on RFM. When I asked why my posts were always being moderated, Susan actually lied - yes lied - to me stating that the IP I was coming in on was used by trolls to spam sexually explicit material onto RFM. I knew that Susan was lying about this because I could post under any anonymous alias I wanted to and not be moderated - however, as soon as I posted as Infymus (using a registered name), I was immediately moderated. I also knew that the IP ranges that I was using to post on RFM were static - and had been static for over three years. When I confronted Susan about her lie, she refused to acknowledge by not responding to my email. My history with RFM. In 2001 I had my name removed from the records of the LDS Corporation. It was a very lonely time for me. In 2002 I discovered RFM and began reading. I finally found a group of people who shared the same feelings that I did and were on the same path of recovery. In 2003 I began posting as Infymus. I have always been a positive contributor to RFM - always following the rules. There were some extremely positive messages on RFM that I deeply cherished. These people posting understood what I was feeling! These people had knowledge about Mormonism that I did not previously know! It fueled my recovery. It aided in my ability to stand up to Mormonism. It helped me to realize that the LDS Corporation was indeed a cult and that it was *NOT MY FAULT*. What I also began to realize was that these precious posts were being archived about 1% or less of the time. RFM does have an extensive area of previous posts, but many of the best posts were disappearing. At that time I was discussing many of the aspects of Bob McCue's publications and began discussing a little of my concerns of the disappearing posts with him. I also began exploring other forums, such as Zarahemla, and the myriad of websites containing a wealth of information on everything from Zelph the White Lamanite to Joseph Smith and the Kirtland Printing Press. Now, let me give you a little background on why I enjoy archiving material. In 1997 I started playing a game called Ultima Online. I loved it. And when players got together and made their own engine to run the game, I joined in. I created a website called The Smithys Anvil. I chronicled the advance of that engine and many other engines, sub-engines and etc. for nearly six years. The Smithys Anvil continues to receive millions of visits per year found at http://www.smithysanvil.com. As you can see, I did an excellent job of documenting and archiving what occurred in the emulator world for nearly five years. There are 112 topics on the Smithys Anvil with a total of 1,336 articles. I spent countless hours reading news groups, websites and chat rooms to provide the community with up-to-date news and information concerning different emulator projects and groups. In May of 2004 I decided to begin archiving my journey out of Mormonism and to help archive the best of the best posts coming out of Ex-Mormonism. I created the Mormon Curtain and began working on the details and layout of the website. In January of 2005 after securing webspace, I brought the Mormon Curtain online. I pull posts and articles from all over the Ex-Mormon world and archive them here into what I call "Topics". All of those topics appear on the main page and then are automatically archived off into Topics. You can see a list of all topics here: http://themormoncurtain.blog/topics.html. Anyone can then come in and read those topics. While the URL location may fall off after a time, I always post a link back to where I found the article and I *NEVER* take credit for it. I have received correspondences from Bob McCue, Steve Benson, Tal Bachman, Samuel The Lamanite - and many many many more. Most all of the parties who wrote such messages have full knowledge that their articles are on my site for everyone to view. Sometimes I even get emails asking for corrections of such articles or updates to articles, and oftentimes the articles come directly to me for posting. Not a single person in 11 months 9 days has come to me stating that the post I culled was copyright and should be removed immediately. Only one person has asked that their posts be removed - and I complied immediately. I receive my share of hate mail, but I receive far more positive emails from people who have personally thanked me for helping them in their dark periods of Ex-Mormonism. Some have even claimed that my website and the material posted here by Ex-Mormons has helped them journey out of Mormonsim. I get people like Daniel C. Peterson from FARMS who come in and attack me - and when I retaliate, he places those emails up on SHIELDS to flaunt them before his Mormon pals. This is how Mopologists operate - discredit Anti-Mormons first. They know that Mormons who pay, pray and obey will read those discredited works first and then dismiss anything further that person has to say. I find this to be one of the greatest tactics used by people like Daniel C. Peterson. I spend countless hours visiting Ex-Mormon websites, newsgroups, news portals and forums to bring the information onto the Mormon Curtain. I do it with a great deal of pride and I am very happy to provide this service to the Ex-Mormon Community. My intentions are pure and humble - I want to provide one of the best archived portals of Ex-Mormon information out there. I want to cull all of the information into one place so that anyone who is investigating Mormonism will have the information at his or her fingertips to make the correct decision. Alternatively, I want to provide a safe haven for Mormons who are looking for information that the LDS Corporation refuses to provide them - and punishes them if they look. This is a work of passion. This is a work of love. That is my goal - to help. I am devoted to this cause. I answer dozens of emails per month from Mormons who are in perilous times with their families because they have suddenly realized that Mormonism is a cult and they are stuck in the middle of it. I am very careful to respond to them with words of kindness and I extend my hand to them in friendship to let them know that *THEY ARE NOT ALONE*. I hope this clears up any miss-understandings anyone may have about me and my true intentions in the Ex-Mormon World. I am an Ex-Mormon and I am damn proud of it. Peace, Infymus. You may Email me at infymus@mormoncurtain.com or infymus@infymus.com - or even join the Mormon Curtain Forums and post your messages there. |
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| I apologize to the readers of the Mormon Curtain concerning the slowdown in blogged items the last couple of days. I have been in debate with Susan over at the RFM boards about pulling posts off the RFM site. Susan has now lied to me twice. Her first lie was concerning why my posts were being deleted and my username being moderated. The second lie was that Susan stated that there were legal issues surrounding my pulling posts off RFM and placing them on the MC.
I have an attorney who has helped me understand the copyright laws and how to keep myself on the safe side when pulling posts from outside sources. In my message with Susan, I called her bluff and asked for her attorney's name and number so that I could confirm her concerns and plot a safer course. This was not to intimidate Susan, this was to correspond with her attorney so that I could understand the legal ramifications that Susan brought up in her email. As soon as I gave her my attorney's name and asked for hers, Susan completely changed her attitude and writing style towards me. In her second message she refused to give the name of her attorney and continued to state the "ball was in my court". In her third message she again stated that the "ball was in my court" and refused to give up the name of her attorney. I now believe this is her second lie - that there is no attorney. RFM has no legal counsel. RFM has no legal issues concerning being “watched by the COB”. This is yet another lie Susan has told rather than face the true fact of why Susan has banned me from RFM. Also in her messages she has accused me of using the name "Recovery From Mormonism" as the name of my forums. This is not true. My forums are named "MormonCurtain.COM - Resources for Ex-Mormons recovering from Mormonism." I have two forums called "Recovery from Mormonism" while I have seven other forums that are not so named. I believe my correspondences with Susan are now at an end. RFM does not belong to me and Susan can ban me or do anything she wishes with my posts - it's her site. I am posting my replies here to Susan's emails for archived purpose. They are also here in case my emails are used against me in any particular way. I will now get back to blogging the Ex-Mormon World. Peace, Infymus. Email #1 Sent November 09, 2005: Susan: "Sigh. I will go over it again." Infymus: Your arrogance never ceases to amaze me. Susan: "PP posted an entire article, top to bottom, that violates copyright - as per our guidelines it was removed. But not till you copied it to your site, saying it was posted to RfM. We do NOT allow copyright material but there it is, attributed to us on your site. As I said, this points out just ONE of the many problems with what you are doing and why you were asked nicely to stop. You want what you want period and don't care about the position it puts Eric in." Infymus: Amazing. So you really think this boils down to legality? You really think that by copying a post made on RFM to MC and the pointing a link back to the original article has the posibility of bringing the COB down on YOU? I think personally you are just a wee bit paranoid on that part. I understand that the COB reads my site DAILY. The IP range blocks coming in from their power tower are logged daily. Also, Porters message was around for a long time, my reply just never showed up. Only within the last 12 hours has his message dissapeared. I also call bullshit on you because other authors post numerous items from copyrighted sites and you don't lift a finger. I think perhaps what I need to do in addition to culling, is start sending you email after email showing you what violates copyright - because really Susan, I don't think you have a clue as to WHAT DOES violate copyright. Susan: "If in the past you got caught at one point in a troll block/filterblock it is very possible. We have had to do it a lot the last year and we have moved them around a LOT. It's a lot of work on our end and has caused inconvenience for users. Price we pay for an anonymous forum." Infymus: This is complete bullshit and you know it. Stop lying about it. infymus@infymus.com has been singled out for moderation. You just don't want to admit to it. Fine, it's absolutely obvious now. And don't worry, I will never post again. Susan: "Since your rude replies and continued advertising and harvesting you have been filtered. You won't stop." Infymus: I haven't advertised about my site for a very long time, besides, the last time that I did, you yelled at me that all your material was "COPYRIGHTED" and I was to remove it at once! You also deleted my message, and others that I've written. I haven't written a message on your system where I have advertised FOR the MC in months. Susan: "And if you want something you see posted by Bob WRITE HIM AND ASK and don't put as posted on ExMormon.Org on it. Same goes for Benson or anyone else. However, what about the anon or first time no addy users you harvest? They don't even KNOW you are harvesting let alone give their OK but you want it so you take it. It is not my job to go check your blog and see if your harvest is even still ON the BB or if the original author has OKed it. " Infymus: If you noticed, those messages that are culled are NOT of a private nature. Not a single one. I think you're just picking at straws with this one. Also, the messages on your system dissapear within 48 hours generally. How is the COB ever going to link that message back? And no, Suan. I'm not going to email every author for copies of the material that they post in various places, that's pointless. Susan: "Why insist on putting us in the middle of legal situations of your making? You want to do what you want to do - GO DO IT - but stop putting us in the middle. Stop compromising us. Our legal has told us in no uncertain terms that is what you are doing and as long as you continue you will not be welcome." Infymus: I'm calling your bluff. Tell me the name and telephone number of your attorney. I wish very much to contact this person and discuss this matter. I wish to verify with your attorney these copyright issues you seem to think you are having. My attorney has done work with me on the copyright issues facing you and your site and the posts made there. He was instrumental in helping me understand copyright law and what can and cannot be posted. Until you post me the name and number of your attorney and I speak with this person and know this is what they have said, I will assume you are telling yet another lie. Infymus: You know what Susan, you're a very strange and paranoid person. I think you have been a big player in the EX-Mormon movement for a long time and other players are moving in. You still remind me of a child with a bunch of toys you don't want to share. I will *NOT* stop culling messages from your site - ever, period. So I suggest that if you want me to stop, you have a few choices. You make your bulletin board system PRIVATE where only those who log in can read it, or, you file a complaint in a court of law asking for a cease and desist - and we will go to court. Or, you just sit and call me names on the outside and stick out your tounge at me - because that's all you're doing now. Infymus: One thing that I will stop doing: I will stop posting links back to your site. I will not advertise for your site period. If I cull a message off your site and post it, I will not post corresponding links back. Nobody will know where the message came from anymore. Infymus: You know what? The webmasters of Zarahemla Forums know exactly what I'm doing and you know what they've said? They praised me for being able to archive the material faster than they were. How about that? They were not paranoid about legal issues. They didn't feel like they were the only exclusive site on the Internet for Ex-Mormons. Only you, Susan, on RFM seems to hold this opinion. Infymus: Why dont' you just come out and say it Susan? You just don't like what I'm doing, period. It has nothing to do with copyright or permission from authors or whatever else bullshit there is. It boils down to simply being you don't like it. You don't like the fact that someone with a lot of resources is moving in - and moving in rapidily. I think personally you give the Ex-Mormon cause a black eye because of this. Infymus: We will bump into each again, I promise. Infymus, Michael S. Hoenie Email #2 Sent November 09, 2005: Infymus: Wow, why the sudden change from arrogance to being positive? Susan: "We recently went from keeping posts for 14 days to 10. Not 2. The Bio board stays." Infymus: I stand corrected. Susan: "The post by PP was taken down when I found it. Your reply was never even posted to the board. " Infymus: Correct, most likely because you had not validated my reply by the time you deleted PP's message. I can understand this. Susan: "PP was taken down manually for posting the whole article - something he knows not to do." Infymus: I understand this and I too edited his post down to what is considered "Fair Use" by Copyright Law. PP is in my back yard and he and I are discussing this issue. Susan: "We are not going to debate free use, again, we ask people to please link. It also saves on band. No biggie. Very few people have a problem with that. " Infymus: I very much dislike this, but you are free to run your website the way you wish. Oftentimes what is linked to vanishes and then nobody can understand what the topic was about. This is why I post full topics, unless they are blatantly copyright issues. Susan: "Same with any copyrighted material and everything else - we will take it down as we see it. We ask people to please send things in to the abuse addy if they find something. We do not even imply that we read each post. We beg for help with this on a regular basis." Infymus: I understand this. I have very strict rules on my forums about copyright material. I also am very aware of the entire COB issue surrounding the CHI and other works copyrighted by the COB's copyright department. Susan: "We have supported other sites. Foyer, Fringe and NOM have all had hard links from the front page but because of the traffic and trolls they have requested they be taken down. I sent two people to those boards this week. Social is free to post on the board but Eric will not put the hardlink back up, they go too far at times and there have been problems in the past." Infymus: I view every Ex-Mormon and a great deal of Pro-Mormon boards every day. Let me state that again. I view *EVERY* Ex-Mormon and Pro-Mormon board every day, including FARMS, SHIELDS, FAIR, RFM, Zarahemla, even some very blatant "white supremecist Mormon" sites. I am a blog/news gatherer - this is what I do. You would not believe the vast amounts of posts on those forums that come from RFM. Ten TIMES the amount that I pull. Also, a great deal of posters on RFM post the exact same copy on other boards - I simply cull the post from RFM first - something I will be changing. Infymus: I would suggest that if you are going to use legal terms with me, you need to contact the admins of those boards and let them know your legal position as well. If you wish, I will gather a list of all the admins of all the boards for you, and I will forward them copies of our correspondances. I think they would be intrigued by your emails. Susan: "If other people are starting a board they let us know, kinna keep an eye on it for a year, and then if it is still running and something Eric wants to support we discuss it from there. We support several email lists. We do not support things that are trying to work the board for abuse victims for their BaC treatment center for example. Or hookup sites for married guys that are gay. Or Decker, that is why he bought the .com. Or the survival guys talking about their guns and what they are going to do when the government fails. Or a dating service, exmo or not. The singles elist is as far as we are going with that. Or the guys that want to picket the Square or throw rocks through ward houses. We do put up the link for the Politics list, we won't put up a Dem/Rep list or a radical Muslim group. All of the above have happened." Infymus: This stuff I'm not interested in, but thank you for the information regardless. Susan: "We just don't want to compromise what we already have. For the life of me I don't see why you can't see that." Infymus: Again, your claims of my site, the MC, comprimising the RFM site is an issue for the laywers. Please tell me the name of your attorney so I can validate your claims. Otherwise, I must assume you have no legal claim. Susan: "Take the "from RfM" tag off things and as far as we know Benson or Tal or Bob or Uncle Billy sent it to you in email and it has nothing to do with us. Why is that such a big request?" Infymus: You did NOT request this of me. You have never requested this of me. You requested that I do NOT pull the message AT ALL. The entire reason that I place an URL back to your site was due to a request by Eric who was questioning my motives. I formally in my last email to you stated that I would stop referring the link back to your site. The only reason that I ever linked back to your site was a fully courtesy to you that my intentions were clear - I did not make the post. It was only to give RFM credit. Those who read the story on front page of the MC were then able to go to RFM (or wherever the link came from) and continue the conversation. You accused me of jeapordizing you legally by doing so in your last email. Until I speak with your attorney on the legality issues you have stated your attorney has warned you about, I will have to assume there are no legal issues. Susan: "Us knowingly letting you wholesale copy the board opens up legal problems for us. And no, we are not going to play battling lawyers. They have kept us out of trouble for a long time and we would be pretty stupid not to listen to them." Infymus: I have never "wholesale copy[ied]" your board. Get your facts straight. If you looked at the number of messages your system brings in PER DAY, including the replies, the number of messages that I pull from your site would be LESS THAN ONE PERCENT. Please do not make blanket statements concerning what I have done. Infymus: In your last email you stated: "Our legal has told us in no uncertain terms that is what you are doing and as long as you continue you will not be welcome." You have still not provided me with the name of your legal counsel. Therefore until I receive the name of your legal counsel and speak with them, I will assume you have no legal counsel and are simply making this stuff up. Susan: "Please just don't put us in the middle of it." Infymus: I still do not understand how you think what I'm doing puts RFM in the middle. /Shrug. Infymus: Please give me the name and number of your legal counsel. Otherwise Susan, you have no legal leg to stand on and you are simply making these accusations without fact. Infymus: Because you will not provide me with your legal contact, I must assume that you have lied about the legal ramifications concerning MC postings culled from RFM. It is just that simple. Infymus, Michael S. Hoenie Email #3 Sent November 10, 2005: Susan: "As I said, you have made it very clear you are going to do what you want to do. If you want to be welcome at the board, ball is in your court." Infymus: Susan you are skirting the issues again. In your previous emails you have stated that there are legal issues surrounding my culling posts from RFM to the MC. Infymus: Ok, I am now going to claim lie number two on you Susan. You have no legal counsel. You refuse to give me the name of your legal counsel therefore I am going to assume you have none. There are no legal issues surrounding culling posts from RFM to the MC - even if those articles contain copyrighted material. There are no legal issues and Eric has not had to "Keep you safe from the COB" for 10 years. You again are lying about the whole issue. Susan: "I find it interesting that you even have named your own BB RfM btw. If you think we are making things up, again, that is your ball to do as you would like with. " Infymus: The name of my Forum is called "MormonCurtain.COM Resources for Ex-Mormons recovering from Mormonism." I have two forums named "Recovery From Mormonism", one that is open and one that is registered only. I currently have seven (7) other forums that do not contain RFM in them. Infymus: If you have trademarked the name "RECOVERY FROM MORMONISM", let me know your patent number, otherwise the name stays. Those who have left Mormonism and are recovering from it are indeed, "Recovering From Mormonism". Infymus: By even debating this section of the MC against RFM, Susan, you show that none of this has anything to do with the legality of culling posts or names. The entire issue is not legal, the entire issue is not IP ranges - the entire issue is this: Infymus: 1. You do not like what I'm doing. Infymus: 2. You do not like competition. Infymus: Plain and simple - and you are willing to lie to continue your position. Infymus, Michael S. Hoenie http://themormoncurtain.blog |
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| I was hoping with the last set of emails with Susan from RFM that the debate between us would be over. It was very easy to come to the conclusion that Susan does not like the Mormon Curtain and is fully willing to lie to defend her position.
I posted our correspondences here online on the Mormon Curtain for archival purposes. I did it to ensure that if I were misquoted by Susan elsewhere, readers could formulate their own opinions by reading the posts between Susan and I for themselves. Susan, on the other hand, turned around and accused me that placing the messages online was because “all of this was just you wanting more material for your site.” I am now starting to think that Susan is not all of sound mind. She is beginning to remind me of the very cult-like thinking that I left: Mormonism. Mormons cannot and will not see what they do not want to see, and Susan is acting exactly this way. I have told her of my intentions on the Mormon Curtain yet she continues to believe otherwise. She continues to accuse me and state there are legal issues however; she brings nothing to the table. To continue in her latest email let us look at her message. First off, I am not concerned nor will I continue to discuss my being able to post on RFM or being moderated on RFM. That is a moot issue because it is not my site and Susan as a moderate there can do as she pleases. However, in her latest email she stated “The two guys that help us with legal got a real kick out of your thinking they are lies.” Again Susan flaunts before me that RFM has legal council and has legal issues with what I am doing with the Mormon Curtain. Again Susan refuses to disclose their names to me so that I can begin a correspondence with them. Let me point out my goal for speaking with the RFM attorneys: I want to discuss the legal issues they have been discussing with Susan concerning posts on the Mormon Curtain pulled from RFM. Susan refuses to give up the names but continually baits me concerning these two mystical figures. Until I receive their names, I will assume there are no attorneys. I understand the ramifications of actually linking to copyrighted material on another site. The Tanners were sued by the COB simply for linking to another site; however, this was not upheld in court and did not set precedence. To reiterate what Susan may be “thinking” (she will not directly tell me) that by setting up a link from the MC to the RFM puts RFM in legal hot water. If the COB had won their lawsuit and set precedence, then linking to a copyrighted post on RFM would place me in legal hot water, and RFM in hot water for having the copyrighted work. Susan in her emails told me that the posts were deleted therefore anyone who followed the link would get a “Note Not Found” on RFM. Again, Susan does not think these things out very well before she fires off her emails to me. With a little more research I find that Susan does not own the site nor does she operate the site. The elusive Eric from Ex-Mormon.ORG has been interestingly quiet during this entire conversation between Susan and I. Susan joined RFM in May of 2002 as per her bio on the bio board. What this says to me is that the owners of exmormon.org are not interested nor are they concerned with the legal issues at hand - only Susan is. I believe that my conversations with Susan are at an end. Susan continually accuses me that “you are going to do what you want.” She never listens to any of my posts and she does exactly what she wants. Debating with Susan is now completely pointless. She is now playing "hit and run" emails coming in and accusing, pointing the finger and then darting back out. This email is here as a record for archival purpose. It is not here to gain more “material” as Susan thinks, however, as Susan has written - she will believe whatever she wants. Peace, Infymus. Email #4 Sent November 10, 2005: Susan: "Well, I see now that all of this was just you wanting more material for your site. As I said before, you are going to do what you want." Infymus: No, the material is posted and will be archived as a record, that is all. It isn't fuel for my site. It will drop off the main page in a week. Infymus: I'm glad to see that you're an avid reader. :) Susan: "The two guys that help us with legal got a real kick out of your thinking they are lies." Infymus: Can I please have their names and numbers? You keep mentioning them but you never give me their numbers... Susan: "I have explained it to you several times and it is apparent you don't care what is said, you just want more material." Infymus: You see you give me a little more information about how you feel each time. And I am beginning to slowly understand that you think all I'm doing is trying to get more material, and more hits and more popularity, and blaa blaa blaa. You didn't even bother to read the post I made about my true intentions. You think this is all about me but truly Susan, this is all about you... I think you need to stop thinking that I am doing this to bolster my "position" in the "Ex-Mormon World" ... You know what, nothing is going to convince you that I am not in it for fame, or money, or "positions", or "glammour", etc, etc, etc. I am in it to help archive the best of the Ex-Mormon world. Let me quote to you again what I wrote: Infymus: "I spend countless hours visiting Ex-Mormon websites, newsgroups, news portals and forums to bring the information onto the Mormon Curtain. I do it with a great deal of pride and I am very happy to provide this service to the Ex-Mormon Community. My intentions are pure and humble - I want to provide one of the best archived portals of Ex-Mormon information out there. I want to cull all of the information into one place so that anyone who is investigating Mormonism will have the information at his or her fingertips to make the correct decision. Alternatively, I want to provide a safe haven for Mormons who are looking for information that the LDS Corporation refuses to provide them - and punishes them if they look. This is a work of passion. This is a work of love." Infymus: You know what you remind me of Susan? A Mormon. Mormons cannot see beyond themselves. And you are doing just exactly that. You cannot and you will not see that I am trying to help. You don't want that help. You want me to go away. You state that what I am doing is threatening the RFM forums legally - and yet you won't give me the names of your attorneys so I can FIND OUT WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT... Infymus: Jeez, you are one hard woman to get through to. Susan: "Since you don't want to hear it from me, go ask your own attorney how allowing wholesale harvesting can effect our legal standing. I'm sure he will be happy to explain it to you." Infymus: Susan, I want to hear it from YOUR attorneys. I would be glad to pay an additional $175 dollars for an hour consultation with Spencer (my attorney). However, before I do that, I want to hear it from your attorneys first. Infymus: Why Susan? Why? Why won't you tell me the names of your attorneys? If they are getting such a kick of out this, what do they have to lose? What do you have to lose? Apparently your lawyers have gone from being concerned over the fact that the MC is culling posts and linking to RFM to now getting kicks out of our conversations. Doesn't sound very concerning anymore does it? Susan: "Now go post this one to your site as well. It will be my last contribution." Infymus: If you say so. I'll put it up tomorrow and assume the same that you have no attorneys, there are no legal issues and your beef with me is simply the fact that I'm here and I'm here to stay. Infymus, Michael S. Hoenie http://themormoncurtain.blog |