MormonCurtain.COM

[Infymus]

Weekly on the recovery boards there are posts concerning Mormons or Ex-Mormons who continue to attend LDS Ward meetings, either in support of a spouse, family, or hasn't yet found a way to leave. The one thing that I've found with all of them is that they allow Mormon authority figures to control them. This is not always the case and many do have the ability to say no.

Everything in the LDS Corporation has a meaning. Priesthood, Relief Society, callings… All of them are instruments in keeping members busy and not focusing on the reality of the outside world. All classes are taught from LDS Corporation printed manuals and outside material is discouraged. I often joke with my Mormon friends that very soon in the not-so-distant future, talks will come from a LDS Corporation approved and printed talk manual.

Mormon Ward members are carefully watched over by Bishops and their counselors. The look up to Stake Presidents as a more inspired class of priesthood. Any issues or trouble in the ward can be resolved at the Stake level with intervention from the Stake President. Stake Presidents determine authority levels in the hierarchy below them. While Bishops look up towards Stake Presidents, Stake Presidents look up towards the Seventy. The Seventy watch the Stakes and Wards.

From the Seventy up to the Patriarch to the Council of the Twelve to the First Presidency to the Prophet, realize carefully that it is a Corporation run as a carefully clean business and dominated with Mormon male authority figures. Because they are federally classified as a “Church”, and because you signed no contract, or licence, or formal enrollment article - they do not have to be accountable to you in any way. They will not show you internal numbers of any kind including membership record numbers, internal spending or annual earnings.

Remember: Mormons pay their tithing checks to: “The Corporation For The Presiding Bishop Of The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints”.

The LDS Corporation has a very unique social class. Through the male hierarchy of the LDS Corporation (ranging from Deacons up to High Priests, including home teaching, visiting teaching, relief society, etc) the result is a tightly weaved web. When any member begins to falter, the web causes vibrations. If the vibrations are large enough, they make their way up the chain of command. At this point, Bishops and their entourage (including the Ward Clerk) take interest in you. Mormon authority figures will track you down in the Ward or home teachers will take more interest in you - or both!

Finally when they corner you and you let them take you into their little closed in "interrogation" rooms, you give them power over you. When someone in Mormon authority corners you and says you have to attend anything, just say no.. you give them the power by bending to their rules. You don't have to be rude, just say no thank you. And be prepared to say no thank you several times. No speech is necessary. No excuse is necessary. You don't have to give reasons. You don't have explain yourself. JUST SAY NO THANK YOU. If they call you on the phone requesting a meeting with Mormon authority, JUST SAY NO. If they stop at your house asking to come in, do not let them in the door, JUST SAY NO THANK YOU. When the Bishop stops by unannounced (as they usually do), do not let him in or you give him control. Politely decline and JUST SAY NO THANK YOU.

Remember: Just like the Miranda, “anything you say can and will be used against you in a Court of [Love] law”. Say nothing. Always say nothing. Remember that it is none of their business and telling them you may no longer believe will turn you into either a Ward project, or you will be under the scrutiny of the Bishop and now the Stake Presidency. Think of the Mormon allegory about “Milk before Meat”. If you tell the Bishop anything, you are instantly placed in a category where you need milk. If you are thinking Mormonism is a sham, then in their minds, you are either under the influence of Satan or reading too many anti-Mormon lies. Remember, “Milk before Meat” is simply broken down into those who appear to have Meat are more Holy. Those who are have yet to be convinced of the truthfulness of the LDS Corporation are in need of Milk. Those who question need Milk. In all reality, there is not one person who has Meat in Mormonism - only those who have the appearance of Meat. Meat, is power.

Cognitive Dissonance, aka, cog-dis.
Main Entry: cognitive dissonance
Function: noun
Description : psychological conflict resulting from non-conforming beliefs and attitudes held simultaneously.

There is no escape from their cog-dis deductions. Realize this right now. YOU CANNOT EXPLAIN YOUR REASONS. Mormons cannot and will not understand. If you do try to explain, they will point to scriptural reference, FARMS articles, “milk before meat”, “that's not doctrine”, “he was speaking as a man” and last but not least, drop into testifying to you the “Church Is True”. The sole reason that Mormons drop into testifying is because when you discuss items that are outside the approved material for them, their brains go into cog-dis (cognitive dissonance). When this happens the brain dumps into a fail safe mode and they begin babbling their testimonies in order to prevent the brain numbing effects of cog-dis.

Do not give Mormon Authority power over you. These are untrained men in a male dominated mega-billion dollar corporation. The priesthood power they have comes from the ability to command those around and below them into doing their will - for which they believe is the will of God. Those below “hero worship” those above and this chain moves from the lowest Deacon to the highest Apostle. Everyone below believes those above are more pious and thus entitled to more light from God. Those below without authority or power can be left to feel as if they cannot find the same God those above them have.

What you have to do is realize that all of them are uninspired men who use sensations under their nipples to determine God's will.

Fear, is the ultimate power. If someone fears you, you have enormous power. Do not fear Mormon authority. Mormon authority comes from their ability to corner you in their attempts to find out why your feelings or ideas are not in harmony with theirs. If you are Mormon and you are considering that the LDS Corporation may not be what it seems, try this approach. Next time a Mormon authority figure asks anything of you, stop and think about your feelings. Has your heart rate increased? Breating increased? Anxiety? These are symptoms of fear. Know them, understand them and experience them. Learn to say NO. Learn that these feelings of anxiety are common and that you can experience them - and learn from them. In this article I wrote in 2/20/2005 after the Bishop of the Mormon Church in my area stopped by unannounced. He wanted to discuss with me my reasons for leaving the LDS Church. I gave him a few items but in return decided talking about any of them would be pointless and I told him so. In the end, I wrote “All in all it's the first time I've been in front of Mormon “authority” and it didn't raise my heart rate or make me feel uncomfortable. It's a good sign. I had nothing to prove and wasn't interested at all in his sales pitch.”

If you noticed in my statement above, I said “Bishop of the Mormon Church in my area”. I do not even wish to give them power by stating “Bishop of MY Ward”.

I'd like to read your thoughts on the matter.

[A Free Man]

You are dealing with an organisation that at its heart tells all of its members that they are inadequate and sinners from the start.

It then deems to mould them in every way of their life. What they eat, what they drink, what they say, where they go, what they read, what they see, what they hear.

Your taught that the leaders in your local branch are empowered with the authority of a God.

Your taught that failure to keep to the rules of the church equals sin. And that because you know so much about God, the punishment is more severe. Denial of the Holy Ghost is a cardinal sin.

People simply have not idea how to live without it. And thats the stumbling block for many.

The other stumbling block is that people don't know what they want when they leave. So they never tell the Church. The Church never listens anyway-but there are some things you can tell them and they see the warning signs and will leave you alone.

The worse situation is to be in a half member family-the political pressure on you by your partner/children/parents is close to mental cruelty at times. As is the "shame" often placed on them-you hear of members who have been "trying to re-convert my (Whoever) for 16 years" GET REAL! But they can;t they are under pressure every so often from a church leader to "get so and so back out"

Take control. Set the agenda. Don't speak to anyone you don't want to. If they do not leave you alone involve a solicitor. They will recoil from you like a scalded cat usually.

AFM
_________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject-Winston Churchill

[Infymus]

Good reply. You're absolutely right.

[exmoron]

Infymus and A Free Man....

While I agree with a lot of what you posted, I think some of what you have said kind of goes over the top. Let me hit on a few things:

1) I'm glad Infymus clarified at the beginning that not all marginal members (non-believers who still attend) are cowering wimps. I happen to know a few who are anything but that. So, good that you note that.

2) While many things in Mormonism (and religion in general) have a "meaning", as you put it, I think the real term you are looking for is "function". As a sociologist, I'm quite familiar with the "functional" analysis of societies, organizations, and groups (look at Talcott Parsons work; well, look at a summary of his work). I agree that many things have functions, but you also seem to take this notion to its extreme by also believing that because these things have functions, they are also necessary for the maintenance of the religion. Let me explain... Structural-functionalists (sociologists who analyze the functions of elements of society) have long proposed that religion has a function in society (or multiple functions). The most well-known is that it serves to regulate behavior (a control mechanism for the powerful; a la Karl Marx's understanding of religion). From a social-psychological perspective, religion can also provide a meaning for life and comfort people who are afraid of death. These are all "functions" of religion. But the fallacy is in thinking that because religion plays these functions, religion must be necessary. Otherwise, what would fulfill the functions?

Now, I don't think you were intending to imply this, but it may help you in your own understanding of Mormonism to view the religion from the perspective of an organic creature that is constantly adapting and changing its "functions" to meet the current needs and desires of both the adherents of the religion and the leadership. For instance, the LDS Church didn't use to have a correlation committee; now they do. 70s used to have a very different "function" in the religion than they do now. Etc., etc.

Anyway, in looking at the "functions" of the different components of the LDS Church (e.g., priesthood, relief society, callings, etc.), first I think you should recognize that these change over time. But second, I think you should also recognize that from your perspective these have functions but for most Mormons, they don't seem them as "functions"; they see them as inspired elements of a quasi-perfect religious organization.

3) I think you paint the leadership of the religion as a little too oppressive. While I agree the organization of the religion is formidable, not every leader is an out-and-out asshole. It would certainly make criticizing the religion if they all were, but they aren't. For instance, when I left, my bishop was concerned, but understood why I was doing what I was doing. He never stopped by, he didn't call, and he didn't give me any grief when I finally resigned. If I met him today, we could have a civil conversation and enjoy each other's company. He is what I consider an "enlightened" Mormon; he recognizes the problems but chooses to live with them.

4) By saying stuff like they all 'realize it is a carefully clean business' you are imputing motive where it does not exist. Many of the leaders of the LDS Church are likely sincere in their beliefs. They may be deceived and there may be some who are willfully deceiving, but I would submit that 90%+ are sincere; they really believe what they say. Claiming they are all out to get people just isn't true. Claiming they are after people's money isn't true (they see it as helping the religion fulfill it's higher calling). And claiming that they intentionally invoke fear is, while true to some degree, a rather negative slant on things. Fear is a vital component of the gospel of Jesus Christ (which is why I'm not a Christian); if you don't do what Jesus/God/The Prophet says, you're going to hell. It's a basic element of the underlying components of the religion. To claim they are bad people for using the basic ideas of the religion to get people to do things is painting things darkly with a very wide brush.

5) I never wrote out my tithing checks to the corporation of the first presidency. I wrote them out to my local ward. While I believe tithing all goes back to the Church and then is divvied up from there, I don't think it is accurate to say the LDS Church corporations are involved in tithing distribution.

6) The LDS Church is accountable in one way - it has to have an annual meeting, thus General Conference. I believe I read somewhere that annual meetings are a requirement of a religious body (or maybe the corporation part), I don't recall which. And, if you recall, a component of every General Conference is a listing of the leadership and an accounting of the affairs of the religion. This is not done because people are unfamiliar with it, but because it is a requirement of the organization.

7) While your ideas on social class within the LDS Church hit on an important point, I don't think "social class" is the right term. Remember, I'm coming at this from a sociological perspective where "social class" refers to a combination of power, wealth, and prestige. Your interpretation ties into power and prestige, but not necessarily wealth (though wealth can be part of it). I think it is more accurate to say "social hierarchy", which clearly denotes power relationships (and their implied prestige).

You seem to paint members of the religion like bounty-hunters, tracking people down to ensure their dominance and fear-mongering. You probably remember the "sincere concern" which accompanied your own efforts at helping other members. Again, manifest motivation (what they claim) may be different from latent motivation (the underlying reason), but for most Mormons, their concern is real, even if misguided.

9) I wonder if just saying "No Thank You" is really the answer? I mean, the only point when the missionaries stopped visiting me was when I told them the truth: "I think Joseph Smith is a fraud and I'm an atheist. There is virtually no chance I'll ever come back, so you are wasting your time visiting me." I think it is actually in the best interest of Mormons (if your goal is to help them see outside their tunnel vision) to let them know there are people who don't believe. I say talk openly about your disbelief (unless you fall into the "enlightened Mormon" category where you know you don't believe and why and that there are others like you but stay for your family). Talking openly about it will lead other people to realize they are not alone in their disbelief.

10) I liked your idea that there is no real meat, just the appearance of meat. From my experience and studies, that is a very accurate understanding.

11) I don't know that fear is the ultimate power (though there is some merit to the argument that whoever has the guns has the power). I'd like to think that reason will triumph in the end. But maybe I'm just being idealistic.

Anyway, I think you hit on some good points, but I obviously don't agree with them all. Also, while I certainly don't mind people criticizing the LDS Church, I think the criticisms have to be tempered so they are accurate. Otherwise doubting Mormons who might othewise agree with you will be turned off by the tone of your rhetoric.
_________________
Smile; there is no god.
http://sonsofperdition.blogspot.com

[Infymus]

Funny that your site is sonsofperdition.blogspot.com...

I own www.soulsofperdition.com

[A Free Man]

Exmoron,

I don't think my response was over the top. Over all the years I have been dealing with the Mormon Faith, I've found little need to make long endless lists about their faith, or practicess. Member or non-member alike confirm the way the church behaves.

I read with interest your points, and if I may would add:

2) You can change somebody's words for them if you wish. It alters not their original statements. And whilst you are of course free to believe in whatever socio-psycho-polotical view point you wish, one think that can not be denied is that the Mormons love function, and social impact. The church thrives on it's ability to keep the herd moving so to speak. Free time is dangerous time-it allows the mind to wander

3) The issue is not really if the leaders of the church are nice or nasty. The issue is that the leaders believe they are empowered with god. And if a member goes less active, or inactive, or whatever-they believe they have a right to seek out this member and get them back in the church-they believe that they are allowed to judge them. They see less active members as a challenge-and are set goals to get you back in, or get your tithing money back in, or get you back to the tempe..whatever. And they doo all these things because they beleive they are better then the less active members and are empowered by good. I've see this attittude thousands of times repeated in many countries. It's THAT that is the concern. Not whether you are able to have a nice chat with one personal leader you think you get on ok with now.

4) The members, sadly think what they are told to think. No more no less. Your view point that Christianity is based on a gospel of fear-I accept that. It's also based on a greed system. Where you work harder for the reward of "blessings". Believe systems are a terrible thing. I guess there were a lot of nice Germans in Germany in 1936...but they all allowed Hitler to take over and run things. In life you have to be accountable for your own actions. Mormons don't really need to think about what they do-as long as its what their prophet says they should do. They just need to worry about not doing what their prohoet tells them to do. They may not be evil. But they are programmed to accept one view only.

5) You wrote your tithing cheques out to the LDS church. They spend it on multi-million corporations, shopping malls, and fancy jets for their prophet and on a large penthouse apartment. While Millions die of starvation. Go figure

6)You think it's accountable? You think it gives accurate accounts? Fine-can you tell me how much it earnt last year, and how much it gave away in non-church charities, food hand outs? If you think the LDS church are accountable you are in for a very rude awakening. I look forward with relish to you providing this info-shall we say the next 7 days? Just ring the headquarters up, maybe they can just send you their accounts-as they are so accountable?

7) This is again just your view on it. And if you are a believer in Marx, then you are using a personal faith system that has an inner hatred of both capitalist excess, empirial control, and decadence. And its was Marx, whom beleived that society should be controled, by a utopia of classless society, except for those that were more equal then the rest.

9) "The only point when the missionaries stopped visiting" your own words defeat your own claims in 7) and 4) and 3) above.

10) There is a lot of meat to be had-if your making the money in a $5.7 billion industry!


11) The mormons are a highly armed bunch-they believe they will have to struggle through a wartorn, weather devestated world before JC comes back. So if you think they that have guns have power-whatch the church. Actually i do not fault them for be prepared. The Mormons of course live with the fear of failing their callings and breaking their rules every day.


Interesting view point you have made-I look forward to you providing that "accountable" side of the church income!

AFM
_________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject-Winston Churchill

[exmoron]

Thanks for your thoughtful responses.

As for the new blog: http://sonsofperdition.blogspot.com -- a friend from high school and I decided we wanted a place to air our rants about Mormonism; out of that desire, our "Sons of Perdition" blog was born. If you know any other former Mormons interested in ranting about Mormonism, have them send me a line. We're actually looking to make it into a team blog with probably 10-15 regular contributors. (end of shameless plug)

As for "A Free Man's" comments...

2) I used to think the LDS Church was very into not giving people time to think. I have recently been re-reading my mission journals and certainly thought that way during my time in the MTC. The hardest day for me was the first day when we didn't really have much to do. After that first day, things got easier because I didn't have time to think about my girlfriend, home, how stupid everything was, and what a bunch of bullshit it was. But I do sometimes wonder if this mentality (i.e., keep them busy so they can't think or question) still exists. I mean, if they really wanted to keep members super busy, you'd think they would talk about more than the basic principles and ordinances of the gospel in sacrament, sunday school, and conference. But, then, you may be right that they simply give people callings and throw milk at them (gospel fundamentals); combined, those two things keep people so busy they don't have time to actually think.

3) I find your framing of the leadership's mentality as "rights" a little awkward. Of course they have the "right" to "judge" people. And they have the "right" to go seek people out. If you mean that the LDS Church encourages a culture where the leadership is abusive of their make-believe "power", I don't know that anyone but TBMs would disagree with that. But this is best not framed as rights. Until we begin limiting (beyond human sacrifices and peyote consumption) religious practice, this is well within their bounds. Are they assholes for thinking this way? Sure, if you don't want them to. But for the members, this is also seen as a reassurance that someone is thinking about them. It has a clear function within the religion, but is a distinct turnoff for those outside the religion (or those trying to leave).

4) I would be careful claiming all Christians are greed-inspired, especially how you framed it. Mormonism is among a select few Christian groups that believe salvation is by BOTH grace and works. Most Protestant groups believe salvation is purely through grace. For them, works are pointless.

I don't think belief systems are a terrible thing. You have one; do you consider it terrible? I think you mean that belief systems, when used in a Machiavellian fashion, CAN BE a terrible thing, like Hitler did and like many religious bodies do. I happen to believe that science is a good way to understand how the world works; does that mean I adhere to a "terrible thing?"

I also think you are oversimplifying how Mormons would behave. I think almost every Mormon would second guess their leaders if they were suddenly told to kill someone for no apparent reason. Sure, many Mormons don't really understand their beliefs, but that doesn't make them all sheep, who follow the herd at all costs. A lot of them poke their heads up now and again and most have one or two issues where they disagree with the leadership.

5) I don't disagree that the tithing issue is disturbing. But I also think you are being overly negative in this regard. Take a look at the numbers. Huntsman is the person who lets the LDS Church use his jet. And while I don't disagree that the distribution of fast offerings is unjust (see Walker, Bradley. Spreading Zion Southward, Part I: Improving Efficiency and Equity in the Allocation of Church Welfare Resources. Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought. 2002 Winter; 35(4):91-109.), I think you need to accurately portray the religion. It can be criticized, just make sure you are accurate in your criticisms.

6) I didn't say the religion was completely accountable in every regard. I said it is accountable in ONE way: it has to give a (bi-)annual report. That report generally only includes the number of members and a list of the leadership (look at any Conference issue Ensign). It does not have to include financial numbers; I don't think it is specified anywhere what needs to be included. Don't misunderstand me. I didn't claim any more than this. I know the Church is secretive and hides it's income from tithing, corporations, and other things and hides a lot of membership information. I'm not defending the church, I'm just saying be accurate. It does say how many members it has, though this is inflated (see Phillips, Rick. Rethinking the International Expansion of Mormonism. Nova Religio. forthcoming.), but it doesn't reveal a lot of other stuff.

7) Strange understanding of Marx. Even so, I am not a capitalist in belief (in action, well, I live in the U.S.; what are you going to do?). I believe socialism leads to a more equitable society, but that is beside the point. Is there a problem with having beliefs? I believe socialism is a more equitable economic system than capitalism. Is it wrong to have that belief? Are you saying all beliefs are wrong and that we should have none? I don't get your criticism here.

9) I don't get your point here, either. How does me getting the missionaries to stop coming by tie-in to Mormons being indoctrinated or Mormon leaders abusing their positions as "shepherds of the flock"?

10) Do you really believe Gordon Hinckley is all about the money? I don't. Maybe he is and I'm just being naive, but I think they are sincere. Of course, I think they are also sincerely misguided, but sincere nonetheless.

11) Highly armed? Where are you getting this? I don't know that Utah is any more "armed" than is Idaho, Colorado, Arizona, Nevada, or any other mid-Western state. People who live out there hunt and shoot targets and so forth. Unless you have clear evidence that Mormons (I'd even settle for Utahans) have more guns per capita than other groups (or states), I don't think I'll buy this claim.

Anyway, those are my thoughts for now.
_________________
Smile; there is no god.
http://sonsofperdition.blogspot.com

[A Free Man]

Exmoron,

2) Yes. Nail on the head

3) Well don't feel too awkward. Mormorns truly believe that they are acting in god's authority. They truly believe this. And their leaders-from the the prophet down, say that their rules, their procedures, are "true beyond any other law or right" GBH-Priesthood Leadership Meeting 1995. And the church encourages this view. Most definetely. It specificaly teaches leaders that it "has the right" or for it's youth to "Choose the right". And that right is not the right and wrongs of a balanced, measured political system or society. It's the church particular values of whats right and whats wrong. According to that particular prophet/page of the scriptures/copy of the ensign you happen to be reading.. And they beleive that they have a "power" A "preisthood Power" It's this "power" that they are keen to talk of. "The POWER of the priesthood" the POWER of the Lord" And it makes them think that they can influence their power on eithers. Quite often they do this in a way which is most wrong. Sometimes this causes members to leave. Mainly it causes members to fall more into the system of the church and loose more personal power to decide.

4)I don't agree. Nor do the Catholics...well not according to their websites and greed of faith. All religion is based on "works" They may come in the form of rules, works, efforts, missions, sacrifices, or some other terminology-but they all have them. For instance the Catholic church has rules about sin, rules about pro-creation, rules abotut faith. If you do not do these "works" you don't get to be a practicing Catholic. I even went on line and looked up a few of the works they insist on to ensure your membership, so that you can enjoy the confession. Here's just a tiny fragment.:

"
The First Rule. With all judgment of our own put aside, we ought to keep our minds disposed and ready to be obedient in everything to the true Spouse of Christ our Lord, which is our Holy Mother, the hierarchical Church.

The Second Rule. We should praise confession to a priest, reception of the most Sacred Sacrament once a year, and much more once a month, and still more every week, always with the required and proper conditions. [even more daily reception of the Blessed Sacrament if it be appropriate].

The Third Rule. We should praise frequent attendance at Mass; also, chants, psalmody, and long prayers inside and outside the church; and further, the schedules setting the times for the Divine Office as a whole, for prayers of every kind, and for all the canonical hours.

The Fourth Rule. We should strongly praise religious institutes, virginity and continence, and marriage too, but not as highly as any of the former.

The Fifth Rule. We should praise the vows of religion, obedience, poverty, chastity, and vows to perform other works of supererogation which conduce to perfection. We should remember, too, that just as a vow is made in regard to matters which lead toward evangelical perfection, so vows ought not to be made with respect to matters that withdraw one from it, such as to enter business, to get married, and the like.

The Sixth Rule. We should praise relics of saints, by venerating the relics and praying to the saints. We should extol visits to stational churches, pilgrimages, indulgences for jubilees and crusades, and the lighting of candles in churches.

The Seventh Rule. We should praise precepts of fast and abstinence, for example, in Lent, on ember days, vigils, Fridays and Saturdays; also penances, not only interior but also exterior.

The Eighth Rule. We ought to praise the ornamentations and structures of churches; also images, and their veneration according to what they represent.

The Ninth Rule. Lastly, we should praise all the precepts of the Church, while keeping our mind ready to look for reasons for defending them and not for attacking them in any way.

The Tenth Rule. We ought to be more inclined to approve and praise the decrees, recommendations, and conduct of our superiors than to speak against them. For although some of these acts are not or were not praiseworthy, to speak against them either by preaching in public or by conversing among the ordinary people would cause more murmuring and scandal than profit. And through this the people would become angry at their officials, whether civil or spiritual. However, just as it does harm to speak evil about officials among the ordinary people while they are absent, so it can be profitable to speak of their bad conduct to persons who can bring about a remedy.

The Eleventh Rule. We ought to praise both positive theology and scholastic theology. For just as it is more characteristic of the positive doctors, such as St. Jerome, St. Augustine, St. Gregory, and the rest to stir up our affections toward loving and serving God our Lord in all things, so it is more characteristic of the scholastic teachers, such as St. Thomas, St. Bonaventure, the Master of the Sentences, and so on to define and explain for our times the matters necessary for salvation, and also to refute and explain all the errors and fallacies. For the scholastic teachers, being more modern, can avail themselves of an authentic understanding of Sacred Scripture and the holy positive doctors. Further still they, being enlightened and clarified by divine influence, make profitable use of the councils, cannons, and decrees of our Holy Mother Church.

The Twelfth Rule. We ought to be on our guard against comparing those of us who are still living with the blessed of the past. For no small error is made when one says, for example, "He knows more than St. Augustine," or "He is another St. Francis, or even more," or "He is another St. Paul in goodness, holiness, and the like."

The Thirteenth Rule. To keep ourselves right in all things, we ought to hold fast to this principle: What I see as white, I will believe to be black if the hierarchical Church thus determines it. For we believe that between Christ our Lord, the Bridegroom, and the Church, his Spouse, there is the one same Spirit who governs and guides us for the salvation of our souls. For it is by the same Spirit and Lord of ours who gave the ten commandments that our holy Mother Church is guided and governed.

The Fourteenth Rule. It is granted that there is much truth in the statement that no one can be saved without being predestined and without having faith and grace. Nevertheless great caution is necessary in our manner of speaking and teaching about these matters.

The Fifteenth Rule. We ought not to fall into a habit of speaking much about predestination. But if somehow the topic is brought up on occasions, it should be treated in such a way that the ordinary people do not fall into error, as sometimes happens when they say: "It is already determined whether I shall be saved or damned, and this cannot now be changed by my doing good or evil." Through this they grow listless and neglect the works which lead to good and to the spiritual advancement of their souls.

The Sixteenth Rule. In the same way we should notice with caution that by speaking much and emphatically about faith, without any distinction and explanation, we may give the people an occasion to grow listless and lazy in their works, wither before or after these persons have a faith which in informed by charity.

The Seventeenth Rule. Similarly, we ought not to speak so lengthily and emphatically about grace that we generate a poison harmful to freedom of the will. Hence one may speak about faith and grace as much as possible, with God’s help, for the greater praise of his Divine Majesty; but not in such ways or manners, especially in times as dangerous as our own, that works and free will are impaired or though worthless.

The Eighteenth Rule. It is granted that we should value above everything else the great service which is given to God because of pure love. Nevertheless we should also strongly praise fear of his Divine Majesty. For not only is filial fear something pious and very holy, but so also is servile fear. Even if it brings a person nothing better or more useful, it greatly aids him or her to rise from mortal sin; and once such a one has risen, one easily attains to filial fear, which is wholly acceptable and pleasing to God our Lord, since it is inseparably united with love of him."

You may consider it an oversimplification to accept that mormons would murder, without any hesitation anyone they were told to kill. But they would. There were a number of murders in (Utah if i recall correctly) in the early 90's and it stemmed from a Mormon leader that had made a break-away mormon faith. He had (women I think) members of his church go and kill people at his request saying "god told me it was a revelation".

The fact is that people often kill when instructed. Think of any religion, or any nation and you wll see they have a history of raising armies up to kill "the enemy"

5) Not negative. Just reflecting that where ever the money goes-it's not on christian deeds. Or on feeding the starving of the world. It clearly goes on their own business empire. Accurate is NOT a mormon word. Not when it comes to balancing the books. I'm as accurate as I can be when dealing with the church. But more in what i have seen them do over the years. I see a lot of people quoting sciptures, or pages from the ensign or etc etc at mormons to prove they are wrong. I've been there and done that. But they refuse to accept it. thinking that i have tricked them. So no I'm just reporting the one thing I have witnessed so often-that whatever the mormons claim they are-they have no simple love for their fellow man. I've travelled all over the world, and that has come through on a number of occassions. The thing that comes through is that they are more interested solely in your tithe and money payments, and making sure you have done what your told I believe when I say that the Mormon church is a moneymaking scheme-where not even one cent of the profits can be balanced. If there is anyone out there that can prove just what they do with all that money then I look forward to hearing from them. Accurate? Yep I think thats pretty accurate of what i have seen.

6) I agree. They spend the money on their business empire. if every penny they got went on feeding the starving-they would publicise their accounts to promote the causes of the needed. But the money does not go on thos things. It goes on the prophets home, and cars etc etc.

7) The whole world has lived under the direct system of Marx for well over 60 years. And it was a terrible thing. More terrible then capitalism? Who is to say. It's only our "free" world capitalist view that says the marx view is wrong. But in his own writings he outlines the anger he had at religion, and capitlism and empires. Thats what he based his teachings on. More on that below.

9) It was your original point. I merely reflected that your own statements seemed to go against the point you raised. They beleived they had the right to see you-and obviously ignored any hint you gave them that you were not interested. hence you had to tell them flatly not to return?

10) Yes. I'm not sure about you. but I'm not living in a multi-million dollar home. And I bet the last person baptised is not either. But he is. Coincidence? I think not.

11) You mentioned that "whoever has the guns has the power" I'm merely underlining that many mormons beleive that being armed is part of their "preparedness" tasks so that they are self suficent. At least thats what a lot of the members told me-and many mormons in utah are armed-are you saying the church says they must not be now?


I've read your comments with interest.

But your right about belief systems. You have yours. And presumably I have mine. Although I'm striving hard to avoid any belief systems, but that in itself may prove to be a belief system.

I just know that I'm not ripping people out of billions of dollars a year-and leting the starving go hungry. Nor do I claim to be the only true religion on the face of the earth-the only one which will grant you salvation-and that all other religions are wrong.

I also note I'm not saying you are inacurate, or wide of the mark with your statements.

I'm just underlining that what you are saying-has no bearing on the church as it currently is. Or as the members itself have explained it to me.

AFM
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject-Winston Churchill